Espresso machines

We wanted to get a new espresso machine for the new house. I wanted (a lot of things but finally picked) an ECM Mechanika and "matching" ECM grinder, and my wife wanted a super automatic like the one we have back in the city.

So we compromised.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/16...G?v=1561740065

And we got it from Chris Coffee which is about an hour (maybe less) from our house. So we'll go pick it up when it arrives, and any service needed will be in the neighborhood (sorta.)

The thing is 63 lbs and 17.5"x17.5"x14" + base - a beast! - so fortunately the counter it will go on has no overhanging cabinets.

edit: Realize after doing a little read-back on this thread that I had foretold this event a while ago. Guess I am psychic.

Looks like a nice machine. I'm sure it'll serve you well.
But I have to give a shout out to ECM. Love love LOVE my ECM Elektronika. The rotary pump is super quiet and the dual water supply is great for plug/play. The hard connection will eliminate the need to have access to the top of the machine - so no worry when setting it under a cabinet. Been EXTREMELY happy with the S-Automatik grinder too. Both have been trouble free for the past 2.5 years. Only trouble coming from a complete exhaustion of beans - easily rectified.
ECM products are a great combination of Italian experience and Germany build quality.
Attachment 115768

If I recall correctly, under the hood, ECM tidiness really shines (ie their build is super duper clean). Is that correct?

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Originally Posted by dashDustin

If I recall correctly, under the hood, ECM tidiness really shines (ie their build is super duper clean). Is that correct?

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I don't have anything to compare it to but it looks proper to me - a mech engineer with a love for all things that move gases and/or fluids. I've had it apart a couple times for reasons other than that's just what I do. Take shit apart and put it back together.
I also appreciate the materials used in their machines. All heavy gauge polished metals.

So, my favorite enablers, I’ve moved out of the mission and therefore am no longer equidistant from 4 legendary caffè*. It is time to take the plunge on a machine. I’ve read all 30 pages and I’ve gathered: a Gaggia classic won’t hold anyone back, but nobody sticks with one forever. Nespresso is/is not ebikes and is/is not responsible for the downfall of civilization and bee population collapse. As usual people here have way more fucking money than I do, and I often feel like I have a lot.

I’m thinking $1.5k is reasonable. Machines like the bezzera unica seem like what I want. But I also a) have never pulled a shot myself, and b) had a *strong* preference towards shots from the gs/3 at the four barrel slow bar, with linea being a clear #2, sightglass 3, and blue bottle and ritual to be too inconsistent to chance a straight shot.

So as a newb, should I go lower? As a snob, should I go higher to get some feature that I’ll want? And how the hell do you make a choice when everyone seems to make a similar machine at 1.5k?




*Italian plural for caffè

based on my limited experience.....

the higher-end the machine is, the more infuriating it'll be when you can't pull good shots for the first 3....4....12mos, because you're trying to learn how to dial in grind, pressure, temp, tamp, position of the moon, position of the sun, and Mercury's location between the 2. if you're the buy once, cry once type, look into E61 grouphead machines for maintenance and (long-term) serviceability, digital temp control, and direct-plumb capability (if you're not afraid of commitment).

or Gaggia Classic, because those parts are so easy to find.

don't underestimate the value of a really good grinder.

if you want to look at features...for me, i looked at how the steam wand was activated...either a rotary knob, or a lever. i prefer lever. i also looked for a rotary pump, because i'm married and have kids that sleep till noon. but that added $$$. a bottomless portafilter would be handy...instant feedback regarding how your dose was distributed. some machines come with one, some don't. set aside a few $$ for a proper tamp and a ridgeless basket if needed.

don't underestimate the value of a really good grinder.

after looking at all sites, i decided that whatever i was going to buy was going to come from Clive Coffee. and i'll recommend them day and night. they have been super duper helpful and responsive.

don't underestimate the value of a really good grinder.

i'd say either drop your budget and go entry level, or increase it about $500 to really open up some solid, very nice, long lasting, fantastic dual-boiler/ heat exchange machines.

but, don't underestimate the value of a really good grinder.

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Originally Posted by dashDustin

i'd say either drop your budget and go entry level, or increase it about $500 to really open up some solid, very nice, long lasting, fantastic dual-boiler/ heat exchange machines.

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Looking further... I think I understand why this is the thought. It seems like everything short of a double boiler is a serious compromise in one way or another and even the nice heat exchange models have dark arts needed to get good, consistent results. If HX machines seem to need this warm and purge routine then why not just get a classic pro? It seems like trading one type of annoyance for another.

However... it does seem like there are two novel machines in the price range. I respect the engineering, but not sure if they are "BB30" like ideas or a "lefty" like ideas...

The lelit mara x looks like a basic e61 group heat exchange machine, but they programmed some cool stuff into the heat and temp stabilization routine so that the "dark arts" for stable brew temps aren't needed. The internet seems to indicate that what they did really works. The trade off seems to be that either you have to pull more shots soon, or you have to wait, but otherwise it works similar to a double boiler type machine.

The quick mill silvano evo only runs the boiler to brew and implements a thermoblock for steam, mimicking the double boiler that way. I'm going to guess the trade off is that running a ton of steam isn't possible, and the machine doesn't have a directly heated group. But at 1k... it seems like some quality engineering choices went into it.

Also the internet seems to love the breville double boiler but while i'm sure it's a fine machine rationally I'm here and not on r/bicycles for a reason, even if it's a bad one.

If neither of these seem like *actual* good ideas a classic pro will be the choice. Just trying to avoid buying something then immediately dreaming of how i'll "fix" it or what the next thing is.

I'll just say that I have been extremely charmed with my Europiccola (had it for a few weeks). Totally different type of machine than you're looking at, it sounds like, but for me, I'm loving this simple manual machine.

And don't underestimate the NEED for a good grinder.

How important is steam quality to you? If it isn't very important, don't bother with a double boiler machine, just tweak a standard HX E61 like the Unica to give you the best shot quality.

I have three E61 based machines* for various reasons and I can get an excellent shot out of each of them but on one of them (ECM Giotto) it affects the steam quality. I could probably adjust the HX parameters to fix this but since I don't drink flavoured milk that machine stays at the winery where it only makes coffee.

One of the other machines, a VBM, which has been adjusted and is thus more versatile, lives at home where it has to make coffee and flavoured milk.

Oh and BTW, don't underestimate the impact of a decent grinder.


* This is not as profligate as it sounds, the total cost for all three was under $AUD1500 (< $USD1000) as none of them worked when purchased. The usual problem is the dreadful Gicar autofill controller so I ditch them and use my own.

Get a Mazzer Mini grinder. The one with the doser. https://clivecoffee.com/products/maz...presso-grinder

And then a small machine made by someone like an ECM. https://clivecoffee.com/products/ecm...presso-machine

I can't remember the exact details of the ECM, but that's sort of where I was going until my wife insisted on a super-automatic so I picked a QuickMill, which is very nice but not $1500.

*puts asbestos underwear on* Im gonna grind with an orphan espresso lido e. I have a thing for hand grinders, which might be irrational. I have a hard time believing it would hold me back. I feel like I’ve been grinding for Turkish to french press for years and I know what I like. Flame on friends. */underwear*

I think the Mara X might be the right call. I guess what’s hard for me to sort out is if the e61 is really all that. This shit is like home audio where things are largely marketed to and funded by dudes who either aren’t using the stuff or care more about what it says about them to their friends but either aren’t using the stuff or don’t know what they are hearing/tasting in reality.

Since Mark is the kind of guy who lives in two of these areas (wine and audio), is the e61 design like the garrard direct drives? Like, is it really the “right” way to do things and many have moved away because of reasons other than quality of the product, or is there a solid reason saturated groups of various flavors have been where the development has been. I don’t have enough experience to tell. After hearing others comments, I am not as worried about steam performance—its espresso most of the time for me with a macchiato on occasion. I’d be sad to never have milk, but it’s not an always thing for me, and never a large quantity.

That Mara X reads like a neat little machine. I'm intrigued.

I can't speak for E61 group heads...I just wanted it because they seem ubiquitous, with small parts available from everyone.

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Originally Posted by spopepro

So, my favorite enablers, I’ve moved out of the mission and therefore am no longer equidistant from 4 legendary caffè*. It is time to take the plunge on a machine. I’ve read all 30 pages and I’ve gathered: a Gaggia classic won’t hold anyone back, but nobody sticks with one forever. Nespresso is/is not ebikes and is/is not responsible for the downfall of civilization and bee population collapse. As usual people here have way more fucking money than I do, and I often feel like I have a lot.

I’m thinking $1.5k is reasonable. Machines like the bezzera unica seem like what I want. But I also a) have never pulled a shot myself, and b) had a *strong* preference towards shots from the gs/3 at the four barrel slow bar, with linea being a clear #2, sightglass 3, and blue bottle and ritual to be too inconsistent to chance a straight shot.

So as a newb, should I go lower? As a snob, should I go higher to get some feature that I’ll want? And how the hell do you make a choice when everyone seems to make a similar machine at 1.5k?




*Italian plural for caffè

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Personally, I think $1,500 for an espresso machine is at least $1,200 more then a person needs to pay when you have simple mechanical machines like the Flair that will do the job just as well for a mere $310 for the top of the line model. Plus with a expensive electric job things have a tendency to fail, like the pump which is the number one failure area, and depending on the model those pumps are not cheap, proabout as much as a Flair and more; and a fully automatic espresso maker last an average of 10 years, while the semi auto and the other types last about 7 years.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...8in%20years%29

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Originally Posted by froze

Personally, I think $1,500 for an espresso machine is at least $1,200 more then a person needs to pay when you have simple mechanical machines like the Flair that will do the job just as well for a mere $310 for the top of the line model. Plus with a expensive electric job things have a tendency to fail, like the pump which is the number one failure area, and depending on the model those pumps are not cheap, proabout as much as a Flair and more; and a fully automatic espresso maker last an average of 10 years, while the semi auto and the other types last about 7 years.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...8in%20years%29

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That's a bit surprising. Here I thought semi-autos are like titanium frames: the damn thing will outlive you if given enough care.

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Originally Posted by echappist

That's a bit surprising. Here I thought semi-autos are like titanium frames: the damn thing will outlive you if given enough care.

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I would have thought the same thing, maybe they make the autos more robust? regardless, spending over a grand for something as simple as an espresso machine should last at least 20 years, and have pumps that can be easily replaced by the user when it does go bad, but this is not not the case. This is one of those cases were spending just over $300 for a mechanical/manual machine makes more sense, and it can pull just as good of shots of espresso as a auto or semi auto can do, of course there is more expermentation with a mechanical/manual unit, but once you pulled a dozen or so shots you will know exactly how to make the best espresso.

Otoh, I did ruin my first machine (Saeco Aroma) by not adhering to maintenance procedures. In the end, the water coming out of the machine was quite cloudy, as I often neglected to descale it. I'm a lot more cautious about it these days (though spending ~$1k on something does make me pay more attention)

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Originally Posted by spopepro

*puts asbestos underwear on* Im gonna grind with an orphan espresso lido e. I have a thing for hand grinders, which might be irrational. I have a hard time believing it would hold me back. I feel like I’ve been grinding for Turkish to french press for years and I know what I like. Flame on friends. */underwear*

I think the Mara X might be the right call. I guess what’s hard for me to sort out is if the e61 is really all that. This shit is like home audio where things are largely marketed to and funded by dudes who either aren’t using the stuff or care more about what it says about them to their friends but either aren’t using the stuff or don’t know what they are hearing/tasting in reality.

Since Mark is the kind of guy who lives in two of these areas (wine and audio), is the e61 design like the garrard direct drives? Like, is it really the “right” way to do things and many have moved away because of reasons other than quality of the product, or is there a solid reason saturated groups of various flavors have been where the development has been. I don’t have enough experience to tell. After hearing others comments, I am not as worried about steam performance—its espresso most of the time for me with a macchiato on occasion. I’d be sad to never have milk, but it’s not an always thing for me, and never a large quantity.

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The e61 group was ahead of its time (1961 the year of an eclipse, hence the name) and has the advantage if being very robust, having decent thermal mass*and having a primitive version of profiling built in (the preinfusion function). The weakest link in these machines is not the grouphead it's the vibratory pump, followed by the heat exchanger / boiler system. The current technology is also ahead of its time but in a different sense: we are now able to control infusion via any number of parameters but we are struggling to understand which are important. This is generally true of the coffee world, for example no-one actually knows what is happening in a roast: the most popular book on the subject (by Rob Hoos) is demonstrably wrong all the way through.

The analogy with the Garrard isn't too bad. I liked my Garrard**, it wasn't perfect but it was well and truly good enough that I wanted to upgrade other parts of my audio system (the speakers in my case) before it.

An E61 machine is well and truly good enough that you will be able to clearly see the differences between grinders and roasts and you will likely find that these reward attention before thinking of upgrading from the E61 machine.



*but not as much as people think. Because thermal "mass" is actually related to volume, not mass, it is about the equivalent of 300 ml of water (10 oz for those still using Queen Anne's gallon 300 years after she died)

** I had a 1957 grease bearing 301 which I got for $150 plus a case of wine. I eventually sold it to fund the bike business; I am partially deaf these days so audio is no longer of great importance to me.

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Originally Posted by froze

Plus with a expensive electric job things have a tendency to fail, like the pump which is the number one failure area, and depending on the model those pumps are not cheap, proabout as much as a Flair and more;

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The common pumps (Ulka ex5) cost about $USD30 and I can replace the ones in either of my machines that use them in about fifteen minutes. A rotary pump eg a Fluid-O-Tech costs about $USD100 but they usually last much longer unless abused (do not run them dry). Since my machine that uses this pump also uses a variable speed DC drive that I built myself I cannot comment on how long it would take to service a standard machine.

The common failure that kills these machines is the autofill controller. The genuine parts cost $USD200 or so which is daylight robbery. There's a way around that but that's a separate conversation.

https://www.ascaso.com/div-espresso-...s/dream-5.html

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Originally Posted by spopepro

I guess what’s hard for me to sort out is if the e61 is really all that.

Like, is it really the “right” way to do things and many have moved away because of reasons other than quality of the product, or is there a solid reason saturated groups of various flavors have been where the development has been. I don’t have enough experience to tell. After hearing others comments, I am not as worried about steam performance—its espresso most of the time for me with a macchiato on occasion. I’d be sad to never have milk, but it’s not an always thing for me, and never a large quantity.

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Yes, the e61 really is all that. A brilliant design that still being used 60 years later. The only way to beat it is by increasing the water flow though the grouphead, which is what La Marzocco and the other cafe machines do. A cafe machine is just a large double boiler machine with more flow though the group.

Engineer in design is always a compromise. If you're not willing to compromise then the solution is a Slayer or La Marzocco Strada EP.

If you don't have $10k or $20k for those then the engineer's design brief is how do you have temperature accuracy and stability, and strong steam, and put it in a package that will fit on a kitchen counter, that doesn't require a 240 volt circuit, and keep the price out of the stratosphere?

The answer is a kitchen-sized double boiler with a fully saturated grouphead. Something like a Rocket r58 or Quick Mill Vetrano, in the $2500-3000 range. If you want computer-programmable pressure and flow profiling, then add $1000-1500 (e.g., Quick Mill Profiles, which is essentially a Strada EP in a small package).

The engineering challenge is how to make the price lower and still make great coffee. The heat exchanger e61 design does this, but with the downside of the grouphead flush routine and learning curve of the heat exchanger. It's a compromise but a smart compromise, which is why it is the dominant design of the last 20 years. A good HX e61 machine will be $1500-2000.

The other way to engineer it is a single boiler, e61 style. The temperature stability for brewing is identical to a double boiler machine. The compromise is steaming. With a single boiler you have to wait a minute between pulling a shot and steaming in order to wait for the boiler to increase from brew temp to steam temp. Plus the machine will run out of steam after 2-3 drinks because (usually) the heating element isn't powerful enough to fill the boiler and heat the water quickly enough at the same time, so you run out of steam. This is the best way to go if you don't drink milk drinks often or make milk drinks for a crowd.

Another way is to use a single boiler for brewing and a thermoblock for steaming. Not as much steaming power as a double boiler design but a smart compromise. It will steam a long time but just doesn't have the volume of steam of a double boiler. Add an e61 grouphead and this is where I'd be looking.

Below that level then you're into tiny boilers (Gaggia Classic) or thermoblock brew boilers. Both have really poor temperature control.

The result is that there is no magic in any of this. It's just engineering, with all the good and bad that brings. With espresso machines you really do get what you pay for. This is why the Rancilio Silvia has been the most popular entry-level enthusiast machine for 15 years. Single boiler with saturated grouphead and with really good temperature control and under $1000. The other choice for you would be the new machines with a single boiler, e61 and steam thermoblock.

Consider this though: the machines are cheap compared to going to a cafe. Spend more than you plan to and be happy. Oh, and get a good grinder.