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Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
GTFOH.
This is a daunting prospect for the Wife and I to entertain and I am looking for legitimate resources with which to evaluate the possibilities.
We're looking at Belize & Panama, Panama City atm... nevertheless nothing is heavily weighted as yet.
Thanks in advance!
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
So you are thinking of decamping? Not sure what the question is.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ides1056
So you are thinking of decamping?
Indeed. The question is: "I am looking for legitimate resources with which to evaluate the possibilities."
I'm doing research. Real estate, infrastructure, ease of immigration, lifestyle, medical, yadayadayada, etc..
So recommendations in terms of where to be poking around online and such from folks with actual experience.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnmdesigner
That is a part of the plan. Extended stays in the contenders. Panama City is considered a "world," city with an apparently vibrant ex-pat community + amenities. The areas specified in the travel advisory are incredibly remote and have no bearing on where we'd seriously consider settling. I live in the Bronx, I can easily find neighborhoods as "bad," as those travel advisories. ;)
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
If you are keeping your current address as a home base while you explore then no need for a visa in the beginning. You can travel up to 90 days on a US passport.
Non working visas everywhere a bureaucratic formality as long as you have plenty of cash in the bank and a clean record.
We had planned to apply for a year visa to Spain this year but that was impossible and won't be a realistic option for some time.
We are just the opposite and want to avoid the ex-pat community as much as possible.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Not one myself, but many friends are.
A major consideration is how interested you are in being part of your new home. There are places that cater to expats... but it's mostly early retirement folks and if you're looking to escape the worst of american ugliness, well, those places have imported it. It ends up just being rich-white-america with a lower cost of living.
If you're actually interested in being part of the culture, then it's going to be about how quickly you can find friends and acquaintances. My friends who immigrated found the social isolation crushingly difficult to deal with--and they are all typically people who don't struggle meeting and talking to people. In most cases it took them years to settle in. A strong command of the language(s) before hand is a must. Having work lined up before hand helps considerably, both for the paperwork and for the connections to people. Immigration is hard. Most folks do it as a desperate measure for a reason.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Are you running toward something new, or running away from something here?
You know how that saying ends......
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Might help if you were more specific about your plans. Is this for work? If so, what's the profession? Retirement? If you choose to work, this limits your options for locations. If you choose location, this limits options for work.
Your situation (or perceived questions) sounds a bit different than what I have to offer but I have experience working as an expat. I don't really have a say in where I'm located, or my living arrangements, or how long I'll be in a given location. It's more of a 'make the best of it' or 'suck it up' until you move on. Most of what I'm responsible for is what I deem as items I can't live without - bike and espresso machine sum that up. Everything else is provided. I don't have an opportunity to settle so real estate, infrastructure, lifestyle etc. mean nothing to me.
What does matter - I miss friends and family. I miss the shit I would normally decline to attend if I was in the US. I miss the familiarity that comes from growing up in a place and knowing the people. I miss the simple shit. This ranges from 'will I have electricity or water service tonight' to 'can I trust the food' to 'should I take a alternate route home'. Being in places you wouldn't normally want to be makes it very difficult to relax.
Regardless of all stupid shit that happens in the US, it's still a wonderful country.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spopepro
Not one myself, but many friends are.
A major consideration is how interested you are in being part of your new home. There are places that cater to expats... but it's mostly early retirement folks and if you're looking to escape the worst of american ugliness, well, those places have imported it. It ends up just being rich-white-america with a lower cost of living.
If you're actually interested in being part of the culture, then it's going to be about how quickly you can find friends and acquaintances. My friends who immigrated found the social isolation crushingly difficult to deal with--and they are all typically people who don't struggle meeting and talking to people. In most cases it took them years to settle in. A strong command of the language(s) before hand is a must. Having work lined up before hand helps considerably, both for the paperwork and for the connections to people. Immigration is hard. Most folks do it as a desperate measure for a reason.
Spot. On.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
This is retirement. I'm retired, she's almost retired and we absolutely want to avoid American ugliness. What intrigues us about the two locations I've listed thus far are their international aspects of the ex-pat communities; not necessarily American only. Not looking for that; we absolutely do not want to be living within the fences of one of these pre-fab American domiciles. Spanish (or Italian) for us isn't insurmountable...P City has a 15% literacy of English, etc. Belize is an "officially" English country.
We're tired of NYC living, we do like beaches. We are open in the adventurous sense and are willing to do a bit of legwork to ingratiate ourselves. Still, ideally, there are amenities that make these kinds of transitions far easier and that's things we're keeping an eye out for as well.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Having lived outside the US most of my adult life, and now keeping one foot in the US and one foot out of the US, I will add to what Ras72 offered.
Panama City is considered a "world," city with an apparently vibrant ex-pat community + amenities.
Don't read the brochure, this is not how it is. This is how it is:
1. The Honeymoon- everything is new, and life is kind of wonderful. (this period can be very short like when you find yourself in Kinshasa.)
2. Frustration- yeap, it hits you, you are not in Kansas anymore. It sucks. This can last for a while.
3. Adaption - you may get here, but that's not guaranteed. I know people who never make it here
4. Acceptance - yeap, you figured the new home and yourself out. You may get here, you may not, but when you least expect it, you find yourself back at #2 .
Now here is the best part- your significant other gets to experience this independentedly from you. You may live together, you may be married for a long time, but that does not guarantee they will experience it like you. More importantly, if you are an american woman, many places suck a lot more.
The concept of amenities is very American.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
I know it is still the United States, but I'd look at Puerto Rico. There are areas that are snowbird filled, but a lot of the retirees are Puerto Ricans living on their pensions from working most their lives in the US. And you can get away from the touristy areas by heading away from the northeast corner. We have close friends who live in San German in the southwest region of Puerto Rico for about 4 months out of the year. Eventually they will live down there for most of the year. The surrounding area is very rural, quite old (church in town is from 1500's,) their house is from the 1700's I think. Cistern water, solar power, some grid connection for most electricity and sewage. Beaches within 15-30 minutes. Almost always one of them has zero people on it. Great weather, super nice people, lots of Spanish spoken, high quality farm products (bio and organic farming taking off there.) So lots to recommend it.
They moved to San German because it was already a community of people with a long history and the climate was great (a lot drier than northeast) plus the beaches. They didn't want to move down and recreate a microcosm of what they already had in the Catskills.
Of course, there are logistical hurdles. Puerto Rico has its own property and title laws. Importation of goods is weird. Banking. But that's going to be anywhere.
You might plan some vacations once travel becomes immunologically stable. Here's a view from their porch. Seems mighty nice right now with a fresh 4" of snow on the ground!
https://live.staticflickr.com/8093/8...0192233b_h.jpg
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Bravo Martin! Good luck with this process; I shall live through you vicariously.
The missus and I talk about this periodically -- certainly moreso in the past 4 years -- so I'm reading this thread with great interest. So far the two quotes that resonate most strongly with me are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ras72
I miss the shit I would normally decline to attend if I was in the US.
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Originally Posted by
vertical_doug
The concept of amenities is very American.
I think we can get passed the first. We joke about how we've lived in New York City for over 20 years (these last 17 in Manhattan) and yet we can count the number of times we've been to a museum, a Broadway show, Lincoln Center, The Blue Note, Village Vanguard, or Madison Square Garden on our four hands and still have enough fingers left to make a fist and punch ourselves in the head for not going to a museum, a Broadway show, Lincoln Center, The Blue Note, Village Vanguard, or Madison Square Garden often enough.
But while Ms. Thing and I may have a lot of different ideas about what stuff qualify as "amenities" versus "luxuries" the stuff we agree are "necessities" are dealbreakers...and a good chunk of those things are apparently unique to the USA. :::sigh:::
Looking forward to hearing how this works out for you.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bob Ross
Bravo Martin! Looking forward to hearing how this works out for you.
Hey Bob, I hope all is well with you and yours...
This is a good opportunity to define what we mean by amenities for the thread.
An abundance of fresh food, fresh air, a pleasant if humble, and yet inspiring vista. Solid infrastructure (power/water/sewage/comms)
We're not very "stuff" oriented.
The daughter will remain in NYC for sure, and we'll crash on her couch as need be. :)
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vertical_doug
Having lived outside the US most of my adult life,
Where do you live Doug? And yes, we certainly need to be realistic about the adjustment process. I appreciate the objective pragmatism folks are bringing into the thread. I'm a bit a of a cynic in general so... it's comforting!
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
As you age, you become more appreciative of, as well as more dependent on your medical professionals...a location that has access to great healthcare would be paramount for me in retirement.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rwsaunders
As you age, you become more appreciative of, as well as more dependent on your medical professionals...a location that has access to great healthcare would be paramount for me in retirement.
Medical access is high on the list for sure.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
I've been an expat my entire adult life and lived in a few places, and I too think about where I want to settle eventually and retire. I've yet to identify a place that ticks all my boxes.
I strongly recommend that you visit places on your short list, rent a house or an apartment, and stay there for at least a couple of weeks to suss it out. Even then, be aware that the things that will really cause frustration are things that you normally take for granted, the stuff you don't need to deal with when you're a visitor. It would probably help to talk with expats that moved to the area less than 5 years prior, ie, not too jaded yet. Someone mentioned healthcare: it'll really suck if you aren't able to communicate your problems to the doctor, nurse, or the receptionist and understand what they're saying.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
(Father to a daughter whose husband is a FSO for the US State Dept. They currently live in eastern Europe, after having lived in Austria, Eritrea and Armenia. Also, brother to a sister who has lived in Spain, Japan and New Zealeand (current). My info is based on interactions with expat Americans mostly in Europe and mostly affiliated with US embassies and the military.)
Money matters. A lot. Many countries will welcome expat Americans with open arms if they have a high net worth and will not be a drain on their economy.
It's difficult for Americans to truly be a part of the local community. A lot of it is us; much of it is them.
Learning a new language at an advanced age is difficult. Very difficult. Unless you are a savant. It's much too easy to navigate Europe as an English speaker. Less so Asia and Central/South America.
Anecdotally, it seems like most of the expats I've met aren't overly immersed in the local community. They largely stay within the expat community of English speakers. Of course, it could be that those that do embrace the local community don't much cross paths with those that don't.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UnfilteredDregs
We're tired of NYC living, we do like beaches.
Martin,
I don't mean to be snarky, and I'm sure you and your wife have thought of this, but just the same, I'll say it:
There's a lot more to the US than NYC, plenty of it with beaches, so it isn't clear to me why you aren't considering elsewhere in the US first.
If I were you I'd think about putting all my stuff in storage and either buy or rent a great cruising vehicle (at the low end of cost either sedan or minivan, or at the upper end an RV) and spend a few months exploring the US (and maybe Canada, while you're at it). I'd guess that you'll come across some spots that don't interest you, but surely there will be others that you really like. If at the end of a few months you conclude that there's really nothing in the country for you, then you can consider elsewhere.
Good Luck in your search.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cash
Anecdotally, it seems like most of the expats I've met aren't overly immersed in the local community. They largely stay within the expat community of English speakers. Of course, it could be that those that do embrace the local community don't much cross paths with those that don't.
I think this is mostly a native english speaker type of thing because you can find someone speaking at least a little bit your language nearly everywhere. You have less incentive to mix up with the locals. Yet it is not exclusive to them, I've seen some fb groups about french people here in Andalucía who keep seeking for advices on any kind of professionnal that speak french so I guess they don't bother learning spanish and mix up with the local community. I find this really strange. I understand it can be useful having someone like a lawyer who speak your language to avoid misinterpretations but when it comes to finding a hairdresser or sports coach, come on, learn the local language. I myself try to avoid the french/expat specific community/events as much as possible and only join events with expats where the point is to actually mix up with the locals like language exchange meetings.
Living among an expat community is mostly like living with a bunch of spoiled kids, it is nice to exchange with people who have traveled because they usually a more open view of the world but if you are living in a country you should like its people and culture as well otherwise there is no point.
Additionnally I am glad I didn't wait for retirement to move. Retired expats are usually targets in poorer countries because all the local scammer see are naive people with too much cash and are too old to learn the language, mix up with the local and know who you can be confident with and what/who you should avoid.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
I spent a lot of time from 1988 until the end of 2003 living outside the US, most of that time in Switzerland. That's a pretty 'perfect' place and with that out of the way I have to say that no place is perfect. If you think running away from the US will suddenly free you of the troubles that face the US you will quickly find that every place has challenges and many are parallel to what we have in the US, just in a different form.
That said, it was the best experience of my life getting to live in places other than the US and I hope to again one day.
As others mentioned, be careful of the expat community. Many folks can't or won't try to integrate into society. I married a Swiss woman and we lived outside of Zurich. After a while I did start going to the American Club of Zurich monthly meeting which was fun but I was not part of that community for the most part. It was a group of people who in any other situation wouldn't be natural drinking buddies. But outside of their comfort zone gravitated towards each other because of a common US experience and a common language.
Go visit the places you imagine yourself but don't go as a tourist. Like someone said, rent a place and live life. You will indeed find that things you take for granted in the US aren't possible there and vice versa. It takes mental flexibility to thrive. Simple things like brands you're used to in the store are different and conducting transactions are different and can be frustrating if you're not familiar with how things work. It's amazing how quickly you can feel out of sorts in a new place. Like as soon as you leave the airport.
I think the OP mentioned Panama City. Go for a few weeks and explore. But not as a tourist. Just see if it's for you and imagine yourself living there.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Thanks for the thread. I don't have anything to add but have the same questions. Last year we were supposed to do a few scouting trips looking at new locations. That didn't work out. What was solidified was that we are pretty good at doing our hobbies and keeping busy.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Reach out to Dave Thompson, who has spent/spends quite a bit of time in Mexico. I think that Mexico actually allows Dave to come back too!
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saab2000
Go visit the places you imagine yourself but don't go as a tourist. Like someone said, rent a place and live life. You will indeed find that things you take for granted in the US aren't possible there and vice versa. It takes mental flexibility to thrive. Simple things like brands you're used to in the store are different and conducting transactions are different and can be frustrating if you're not familiar with how things work. It's amazing how quickly you can feel out of sorts in a new place. Like as soon as you leave the airport.
Also, dealing with a foreign administration can be headache inducing at times.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sk_tle
Also, dealing with a foreign administration can be headache inducing at times.
Yes, in the Czech Republic, you had to deal with the expat police for renewing residency permits. It was definitely a no-joking affair. Not very nice. We were lucky. My wife's firm had a fixer/negotiator. We would go with him each time, and he would usher us through the process. For other people, including other Americans, it was a mysterious and sometimes expensive affair. When the US blocked Czechs from visiting the US without a visa after Havel refused to corroborate the Bush administration's Iraqi Embassy - 911 conspirators Prague meeting fabrication, we were no longer able to do our paperwork in Prague. We had to go to a CR embassy outside of the country, renew our papers and then return through a border control point. Felt straight out of the Iron Curtain era, basically because the allowed border points were from that era. Once we went to Austria and once to Germany. Not much of a fan of Austrian border guards.
So you may want to escape US b.s., but it will come and find you.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
There's a lot of places i'd not mind moving to but the trepidation is a lot along the lines of what's been mentioned above, that one government gets into a tiff about another government and all of a sudden the local government does something totally within their rights and I wind up with no rights any more. Like "nice place you got there, we think we'd like it for ourselves" and there's nothing you can do about it.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Martin, I spent 6 years as a half-year winter expat in a village in Mexico, owned a house, paid electric and water bills, the whole thing.
I’d be happy to discuss any and all aspects of my experiences if you’d care to. PM or e-mail is best.
Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UnfilteredDregs
GTFOH.
This is a daunting prospect for the Wife and I to entertain and I am looking for legitimate resources with which to evaluate the possibilities.
We're looking at Belize & Panama, Panama City atm... nevertheless nothing is heavily weighted as yet.
Thanks in advance!
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Also, this may sound like you won’t bang up into it but you need to check each country you are thinking about...taxes. As an American, you will owe all of your normal taxes to the US no matter where you live (it is one of the few countries to tax its citizens no matter where they are and where their income is from. The US has tax treaties with a good number of countries which makes it so that you don’t have to double-pay taxes (on the same things but sometimes the country taxes different things than the US does). What becomes really important is how many days in country does that country consider necessary for a tax filing (even if you don’t actually owe) and how many days and how much money in what kind of financial institution require some form to be filed. I know it sounds like it won’t matter but I got tripped up in Canada because I didn’t file a form (that I didn’t owe anything on it was just a for their information form). I didn’t have to pay a fine because I was new so I got a one time free pass. My wife, however, is a Canadian who has not lived in Canada for 35 years and she had to pay a fine. All because we keep a rather small checking & savings account at a local bank in each country and we were 2 days over the number of days stay in the country for this to matter. Canada counted the days in residence differently over a year for “filing in our country purposes” than the US did..by 2 days. And it is not like Canada and the US is such an esoteric combination which is why I am suggesting you look into this rather mundane aspect just to CYA in case you are in a more esoteric combination.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Not arguing against doing this mind you! One of the best experiences in my life, living in Prague. A whole handful of super good friends came out of it. Czech, US, Slovak, England, etc. Highly recommend living somewhere else if you get a chance.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mabouya
it isn't clear to me why you aren't considering elsewhere in the US first.
It's our opinion that there's a massive far-right destructive movement taking place in the US and we want no part of it. I've traveled extensively. Was in the US Navy. I've lived in the South, the Southwest, the West Coast, the Northwest.
I appreciate the question, I wasn't clear enough.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j44ke
Not arguing against doing this mind you! One of the best experiences in my life, living in Prague. A whole handful of super good friends came out of it. Czech, US, Slovak, England, etc. Highly recommend living somewhere else if you get a chance.
Except New Jersey. Just sayin'
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UnfilteredDregs
It's our opinion that there's a massive far-right destructive movement taking place in the US and we want no part of it. I've traveled extensively. Was in the US Navy. I've lived in the South, the Southwest, the West Coast, the Northwest.
I appreciate the question, I wasn't clear enough.
I certainly don't mean to argue - we all have our dreams - but I'd look hard at myself if this is your motivator.
You're seeing a destructive movement that happens everywhere. Destruction of what you value can be found anywhere. When/if you move, some form of destructive movement will be present; you'll just be blind to it. Given some time in a new place, you'll find it there too.
We always find what we seek.
Where I'm currently located (many retired expats) I see some MAJOR destruction in the local culture. It's not political and it's not surface level but it's there. To the point, I'd be very concerned about the next 10 plus years (if I was emotional invested in this place).
Again, not to conflict with your ideas but to give you a perspective you asking for.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UnfilteredDregs
It's our opinion that there's a massive far-right destructive movement taking place in the US and we want no part of it.
I've led a hell of a privileged life, so when I reached that same conclusion years ago, I committed to returning home and countering that rightward shift within my state to which I had contributed by leaving at 20 years old. Now I feel stuck here (paycheck to paycheck, among other things), despite equally committed to that mission. This is a university town, and one of the more liberal of the state, though still very conservative. Each time allies/friends move outta state for improved living, I'm happy for them but sad for the rest of us still here. Your intentions evoke a similar experience for me. I'll be happy for you if you find somewhere more ideal, but happier if you can find contentment staying and contributing within this country I characterize as the most belligerent of all countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ras72
You're seeing a destructive movement that happens everywhere. Destruction of what you value can be found anywhere. When/if you move, some form of destructive movement will be present; you'll just be blind to it. Given some time in a new place, you'll find it there too.
We always find what we seek.
While for lack of information I don't presume the destruction Martin perceives is present everywhere, this does remind me that many changes here in the US are parallel to many places across the globe, so I'd suggest a central issue may be capitalism's grip on the world. Reminds me of an article from last summer - "Empire of Same".
Anyway, a friend in his 40s (who identifies as libertarian but despises most libertarians and seems to actually lean left on most things) similarly frustrated with this state and country often says he's considering Uruguay, so maybe look into there. I only know two people from Uruguay - a retired man and his son. The old man lives with the son and his family. They live a couple blocks away, have been customers, and stand out to me as high quality individuals in the community - patient, thoughtful, encouraging, that sorta stuff. Not that such necessarily means anything about Uruguay, of course.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Other than Canada, and these days less so, the US, I wouldn't say that there are too many shining examples of democracy and good governance in the western hemisphere.
Chances are, if you leave the US you're going to be going to someplace significantly worse, unless you're really going far.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mabouya
Other than Canada, and these days less so, the US, I wouldn't say that there are too many shining examples of democracy and good governance in the western hemisphere.
Chances are, if you leave the US you're going to be going to someplace significantly worse, unless you're really going far.
This rings true for me. I spent 29 months living abroad in two different countries in Western Europe. Returning to the States made me really appreciate and love it. The opportunities, the people, the abundance, the plumbing, and the general lack of low-to-mid level corruption makes this a great place to live.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Thanks all, just wanted to divulge the motivation and I'd appreciate it if we left it at that considering there's a more specific thread already on the subject.
And I do value all the input here. I appreciate the pragmatic skepticism.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
I think our friends have it worked out. About the time they are tired of their plumber in Puerto Rico connecting the gas line to the water line, they come back to NYS where the plumber connects the water line to the gas line.
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Re: Any American Ex-Pats here? We are heavily considering...
Also, be open to the possibility that it might take a couple of years to settle in and find your rhythm. I had that experience once, but it may have been partly because I went in thinking that it will take only a week or two because I had been a regular visitor (at least twice a year) for many years prior and already had an existing network of local friends. It probably made the 2-year jet lag seem more challenging because I hadn't expected to have one at all.