consumers: how much does frame price influence your initial thoughts on quality

[steve garro]

and why? the de salvo thread got me to thinking: some said that they thought that his base price was too little. why? what influences your perceptions of "quality?" do you go the extra mile to learn what is under the paint? interweb reports? friend's recomendations? you can buy a TIG welded Rock Lobster or a fillet brazed Curtlo for great prices - SUPER low considering each of these builder's pedigrees.........what makes a builders prices "fair" "resonable" "low" or what? just for two wild card examples - what, in your perceptions makes a pegorreti worth more then a de salvo? both TIG steel, both really no frills under the paint, just great TIG bikes {don't get me wrong, i have nothing but utmost respect for all builders i've mentioned in this thread - it's PERCIVED VALUE to the customer and how they see the price tag as "fair" that i'm just wondering about} please discuss......... steve.

[Saab2000]

I am a consumer of fairly high-end bikes, but most of mine have been used bikes so my opinion may not be valid.

But I am getting a brand new Zanconato in the next couple months or so. Reading what other folks wrote about their experiences, as well as visiting the blog, were what sold me. A bonus was what I considered to be a pretty low price, relatively speaking.

There are other builders who charge more and others who charge less. I guess that anything over $2000 is probably past my limit, but that's based on my personal finances not what I think of a frame's 'quality'. Price was a factor in my decision, but I assumed the quality would be more or less the same as if I had bought from another 'name' builder.

Over at the Serotta Forum there is much debate on value, whether perceived or real. Serottas frames are very expensive, as we all know. One of mine has been worth the price it would have cost new. It is my CIII which even though it is a bit large for me, does allow me to hit some good contact points. And it rides and handles great. Another, my 57L CSI has been worth what I paid for it used, but otherwise causes no spark of passion in me. Based on my impressions of it I would not be inspired by Serotta if it had been my first Serotta. Fortunately, it wasn't so my opinion of that brand remains high.

Which one has better value to me? The CIII of course.

But the question here is of the value/quality relationship. It is my opinion that the quality of most builders who are well-known in the world of very high-end bikes (which is what we are dealing with here) is beyond reproach. I suppose that some of you builders may be able to judge the quality of your peers, but I am not able to make that judgement.

Is a Zanconato that costs less than $2000 lower quality than a Sachs or Spectrum or Kirk that costs more than $2000? I doubt it and that thought never entered into my thought process when looking to buy my next machine.

[Saab2000]

BTW, I think part of the reason folks are willing to pay more for a Pegoretti is that there is the idea out there that geometry and understanding of balance, etc just doesn't get better than his. If he was the go-to guy for Indurain and other TdF stars why wouldn't he be able to charge a high price.

Win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Works for a lot of folks.

That is part of the value equation. Knowing you're getting the best, be it materials or ultra-clean welding or brazing or painting or be that an understanding of what makes a race bike a race bike.

[bigbill]

IMHO, you are paying for the experience of the builder. RS and others have unquestionable pedigrees while the newer builders are still developing their craft and reputation. The bonus builders are the ones who gained their experience working under a "master" before striking out on their own. IMO, this is where you find the real treasure.

If I pay more than $2k for a custom steel frame, I expect that the fit and finish be perfect. Less than that, I expect it to fit and look good.

[rphetteplace]

There are some truly wild pricing structures out there. Last I heard Della Santa was +-$2K frame, for a guy that's built world championship bikes that's amazing. Same with Landshark. John built a Giro winning frame and you can still get a full fillet brazed frame for around $1700. Slawta's fillets are as good as there are in the business imho. I think that John has produced more custom frames then anybody else in the US in a 1 man shop today. He is prolific.

There are guys on the other end of the sprectrum with just a handful of bikes on their resume getting big bucks for frames cuz as Swoop said so well they "have a good flickr site"

You also can have the best lug/fillet/tig work out there and if you have shit paint jobs/color schemes builders aren't doing themselves any favors.

Peg is able to charge premium prices due to reputation and pedigree. He's got a who's who of pros that he's built bikes for that is tough to argue with. Other part of his magic are his paint schemes which love or hate them invoke a response from everyone. With such a wide range of paint from Luigino to Resporium pain there is something for everyone.

[mike p]

I think when you get into the upper tier of builders it comes down to matching a builders "style" (geometry,fit,finish and overall look) to yours. If you can find a builder that you match up with for 2k less than another than thats what I'm doing. I really don't think theres a big difference in quality between builders like DeSalvo, Della Santa, Slawta all sell frames for 2k or less and builders who sell frames for 3k to 5k.
It can also depend on what a bike is to you. Is it a tool to win a race? A fine work of art? A means of transportation? Or maybe a combo of these and many others. If your just in for a race bike a caad 9 will save you 2 or 3k over many high end bikes and won't make any difference in race results.
I love race bikes but also fine craftsmanship, unfortunately I am of modest means. Fortunately there are builders like DeSalvo, Della Santa, Slawta and others, so I can have my cake and eat it to.

Mike

[tai rui]

I've gone the custom route 8 times and I have many other peg bikes. "Value" for me is nothing more than how much I like the bike and how much I am willing to shell out. I could care less about the rest of the world's perception of what I ride and how much I spent for it.

When it comes to custom I look for the following things:

-Builder's willingness to talk on the phone, listen to what I am saying and answer my email promptly.
-Whether or not we "click". I can tell within 5 minutes of discussion whether I want to go forward.
-When I'm ready for a new frame I think about the last process and whether I want to do it a second or third time. Of the builders I have worked with, I've been a repeat customer with one and would go back to two of the others again. There are several who will never have to worry about my money darkening their door a second time.
-Price - Doesn't matter a whit, but I do operate in the space of "obscenity thresholds." They're very simple and I do not cross them. ~3500 for a frame, ~1000 for wheels, 6 months lead time. Above that, I simply can't bring myself to spend the money or wait.
-Reputation - I read the web and I see how purchases have gone for other people.

When it comes to peg bikes - if it's below my threshold, it's attractive and it fits - if I want it bad enough, I'll buy it.

The things that prompt or restrain me from spending money in both cases is whether I feel I am getting a bike that is intellignetly thought out, built well and is appealing to my eyeballs. And whether or not it's a hassle to get (PITA builder/seller, lead times, etc.)