Old buildings

[rwsaunders]

Rather than derail the daily photos thread, I thought that I’d post a few pics of a project that we are involved with that is in the due diligence phase. I.e., is it worth purchasing and repurposing, which is always a challenging process. Throw money, engineering, safety, life cycle analysis, energy conservation, hazmat abatement, incentives, rebates and time, together with some history and emotions and there’s a lot happening. Sometimes the projects “pencil” and sometimes they await the trip to the landfill. I find the history of the buildings and their link to both their communities and the country in general, to be fascinating. I’m sure that many of you live in older homes and buildings, so you can appreciate the tales that they can tell. Keeping my fingers crossed on this one…

[Too Tall]

Gosh, that's lovely and yes your passion for what's done but not quite done is shared.
We used to explore abandoned structures around the DC area. One of my favorites are abandoned brick kilns near the Potomac river. The amazing craftmanship is lost to weeds and vines but not to a discerning eye.
The IG link below is a keyhole into some of this.

[bigbill]

When I drive to Truxton, AZ, to teach school, I pass the old Valentine School, built in 1903. It was an Indian Boarding School, not the best of U.S.History. As a historian, I would like to see the school building restored and put in historical context to make sure this sad history is not lost.

https://www.nps.gov/places/schoolhou...ing-school.htm

And one day, this will be mine. It was my great-grandmother's bank and it belongs to my mom. There are professional offices and the Chamber of Commerce/Economic Development office downstairs, and the upstairs has four apartments. In 1994, the upstairs was destroyed in a tornado, and rebuilt within a year, so the plumbing, wiring, and roof are only 28 years old.

[robin3mj]

My 2c; unless you have a capital provider comfortable with a higher than usual amount of time/budget risk, or you're located in a place with significant incentives to rehab old buildings, it's increasingly tough to do. I have seen senior housing created from old schools, hospitals, etc and some have come out great but many more have not left the planning stage. We once had one in St Joseph, MO that was a former office building with a grain trading floor on the top floor. One of the residents I met had been a "runner" for the trading operation as a youngster, carting grain samples from the docks of the Mississippi River to the office back and forth.

New "5 over 1" construction is just too commoditized and safe/easy to underwrite.

We could all take a cue from England, as there is a whole industry around keeping old buildings upright, modernized, and operational.

[vertical_doug]

How about Earlshall from the 16th century.

The gallery is pretty cool.







https://search.savills.com/property-...bedrseds150173

or you can do this one from the 15th century and remodeled in 1860.







https://search.savills.com/property-...bedruedr230004

[j44ke]

Hey RW - I think you are just the guy to make this happen. I have a feeling the type of building you are involved with as your day job will have put you in touch with some of the granting orgs that will help facilitate the process. Could be wrong, but what a great challenge. Reuse rather than reduce to rubble. And the opportunities to convert what may have become an unhealthy space into a healthy one seems like a tremendous proof-of-concept opportunity for a lot of recent building tech.

Plus you have the mustache. That'll get you 50% of the way to yes.

[rwsaunders]

My 2c; unless you have a capital provider comfortable with a higher than usual amount of time/budget risk, or you're located in a place with significant incentives to rehab old buildings, it's increasingly tough to do.

Yes…this project is all about applying specific elements of the state/federal historic tax credit program, as well as the DOE’s recent 48C program, to make it pencil. It doesn’t hurt that the location is dead-on, in terms of where the client wants to be and LEED (green design), wellness, hybrid workplace environment and community engagement are important to them..pretty easy design details to address with an open floor plate, deep floor-to-floor dimensions and lots of natural light.

The project schedule will also be favorably impacted, as procuring/fabricating/erecting steel for a building this size would be a 5-month journey in itself. If you haven’t experienced the effects of commercial construction escalation, we’re averaging a collective increase of 38.5% nationwide since 2018, so having a “shell” that can be retrofitted certainly helps. Other challenges include the hazmat abatement of course and if they elect to demo the building and start new, we’ll easily have $750K in demolition and removal costs, so it’s a balancing act with emotions thrown in for good measure. The true question is, will the seller agree to the asking price and can this project bring Mike Noble out of retirement?

https://www.nps.gov/subjects/taxincentives/index.htm

https://www.energy.gov/infrastructur...it-48c-program

[lumpy]

Looks like a great building. My dad is currently redeveloping two commercial buildings in Brockton, MA, into housing. One formerly housed Petronelli's Gym, where Marvin Hagler trained. These are both historic tax credit deals. Back in the '70's, he did the first syndication of tax credits generated by a nonprofit development to a for-profit buyer who could use the tax credits.

[mnoble485]

Yes…this project is all about applying specific elements of the state/federal historic tax credit program, as well as the DOE’s recent 48C program, to make it pencil. It doesn’t hurt that the location is dead-on, in terms of where the client wants to be and LEED (green design), wellness, hybrid workplace environment and community engagement are important to them..pretty easy design details to address with an open floor plate, deep floor-to-floor dimensions and lots of natural light.

The project schedule will also be favorably impacted, as procuring/fabricating/erecting steel for a building this size would be a 5-month journey in itself. If you haven’t experienced the effects of commercial construction escalation, we’re averaging a collective increase of 38.5% nationwide since 2018, so having a “shell” that can be retrofitted certainly helps. Other challenges include the hazmat abatement of course and if they elect to demo the building and start new, we’ll easily have $750K in demolition and removal costs, so it’s a balancing act with emotions thrown in for good measure. The true question is, will the seller agree to the asking price and can this project bring Mike Noble out of retirement?

https://www.nps.gov/subjects/taxincentives/index.htm

https://www.energy.gov/infrastructur...it-48c-program

Oh heart be still, I’ve been on the bench for 4 years now but still get calls from headhunters. The answer is always no but this would intrigue a younger me. I’ve been involved in the renovation of a 1920s theater and an entire 8 story wing of an older hospital. Lead paint, asbestos and surprises every day. Nimbleness and an understanding owner and GC are all necessary.

Mike

PS If this happens we will definitely need status reports

[randonneur]

When I drive to Truxton, AZ, to teach school, I pass the old Valentine School, built in 1903. It was an Indian Boarding School, not the best of U.S.History. As a historian, I would like to see the school building restored and put in historical context to make sure this sad history is not lost.

St-Eugene in Cranbrook, BC (about 3.5hrs NE of Spokane, WA, or 2.5hrs NW from Whitefish, MN) used to be a residential school. It's now owned by the local Ktunaxa (too-nah-ha) Nation who've developed it into a hotel, golf resort and casino.
https://www.steugene.ca/

My wife stayed there one night, but I've only walked through the lobby. I could definitely feel the ghosts within and I'm not sure I'd want to spend the night there, ha.

[echappist]

A question for the knowledgeable, when a former factory or warehouse gets converted into a residential loft, could one trust that the build-up of harmful stuff has been removed as well? Is there even a way for one to test and measure such things?

[dashDustin]

https://www.austincc.edu/news/2022/1...-grande-campus

We were involved with this historic renovation. From day one was it was a disaster and money pit. What was supposed to have been a simple remodel ended up being basically a complete gutting. Think it ended up being delayed 2 years.

Recently bid another reno. During the walkthrough, I was chatting with the GC and being pretty blunt with them - my number was gonna be high. And they should follow suit, because anything that could go wrong, likely would.

As we were getting ready to mobilize for some temporary stuff, it was discovered that the soil under the slab had washed away and the slab was unable to support the new construction.

Renos are cool, and look great. But holy guacamole can they blow up fast.

[rwsaunders]

A question for the knowledgeable, when a former factory or warehouse gets converted into a residential loft, could one trust that the build-up of harmful stuff has been removed as well? Is there even a way for one to test and measure such things?

Yes, there are local, state and federal guidelines for testing, abatement and remediation that are very strict and comprehensive. Some firms specialize in testing and monitoring, some firms specialize in abatement and remediation and some cover all categories, and a key component of the due diligence process is working to uncover exactly what "bad stuff", might have accompanied the construction of the facility, along with the operation of the facility. Common elements include asbestos containing materials and lead paint, and subsurface soils issues are another element. Poor compressive strength, expansive materials, seismic compliance, UST (underground storage tanks), arsenic, PCB's, creosote among many others and a new one to me...Tetrachlorethylene (PCE) and trichlorethylene (TCE)...which were used to clean metals during the fabrication process which in this particular case, were associated with the Apollo program in Downey, CA. Total nasty and dangerous and not easy to remediate.

[bigbill]

The original Valentine School is on an annex of the Hualapai Tribe. The property sits next to Rt 66 and has housing and offices for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. There is not much else in the area that would make the tribe restore the building other than historical reasons. I teach at the newer Valentine School, which is a K-8 with about 90 students. Although not technically on the Hualapai Reservation, all but about a dozen students are Hualapai. In the true fashion of a cyclist's reference, the school is my turnaround for my 36 miles/1100 feet of climbing out and back.

[echappist]

Rather than derail the daily photos thread, I thought that I’d post a few pics of a project that we are involved with that is in the due diligence phase. I.e., is it worth purchasing and repurposing, which is always a challenging process. Throw money, engineering, safety, life cycle analysis, energy conservation, hazmat abatement, incentives, rebates and time, together with some history and emotions and there’s a lot happening. Sometimes the projects “pencil” and sometimes they await the trip to the landfill. I find the history of the buildings and their link to both their communities and the country in general, to be fascinating. I’m sure that many of you live in older homes and buildings, so you can appreciate the tales that they can tell. Keeping my fingers crossed on this one…

The aerial view is really neat. It appears to suggest a large-ish sized town, but I was surprised to find that the town, even in its heyday, was only 1/3 the size of Bethlehem. And speaking of neat towns, Bethlehem would be up there. Lots of grand buildings from the turn of the 20th century.

Also, although I appreciate your kind words, my guesses in that other thread is of the variety of any one of a) through d) responses on a four-answer multiple choice question. Pullman was actually the least expected out of the four, given that I thought it was mostly a Midwest company (whereas a few of the others have significant presence in Pennsylvania).

[thollandpe]

Rather than derail the daily photos thread, I thought that I’d post a few pics of a project that we are involved with that is in the due diligence phase. I.e., is it worth purchasing and repurposing, which is always a challenging process. Throw money, engineering, safety, life cycle analysis, energy conservation, hazmat abatement, incentives, rebates and time, together with some history and emotions and there’s a lot happening. Sometimes the projects “pencil” and sometimes they await the trip to the landfill. I find the history of the buildings and their link to both their communities and the country in general, to be fascinating. I’m sure that many of you live in older homes and buildings, so you can appreciate the tales that they can tell. Keeping my fingers crossed on this one…

Wow, what a regal old beast. Here's hoping it gets to rehab. Gone are the days when you could put plumbing, electrical, and HVAC on a single sheet!

Question for you and others replying, have you ever done an embodied carbon analysis for the demo/rebuild vs. renovate question? We're calculating embodied carbon for almost all new buildings, and have done a couple to answer the demo vs. reno question.

One of the architects I've worked with did this analysis for the last building at Mass MoCa (Museum of Contemporary Art) and the decision was to keep the shell of the old mill building and renovate the gallery space inside. Really, really cool place and a great project.


https://www.architectmagazine.com/pr...a-building-6_o

PS Does anybody have the BBcode chops on how to add resizing lingo to the image addresses, such as "?width=600"?