Newb Question: Trail, what is too far?

[jamaris]

Okay, this might be already covered in some capacity and may get some groans, but the question (which also probably has too many variables) is...

If things are generally normal (nothing too crazy in terms of chain stays or head tube angles or lots of other things I am sure I am missing), can you make trail as "low" as you want it/handle it?

Or maybe a better question is what is the lowest trail value you have ever built a road bike around (let's say 700x23 tires for ease of use even if we know 25< is better)?

[WadePatton]

I'm not answering your question directly but using your post (do you feel dirty?) to share some trail observations as yesterday i spent a while studying upon it.

First, as a newb, I simply used established figures for front end angle/rake to get trail right in the middle of the range for RR bikes. It works, and I was re-using a store-bought fork.

Now that I've built a fork (to match the one I designed around above), I know that the angle and rake can be completely manipulated by my work. And the long story short of what I was studying yesterday is that Angle and Rake are inversely related...i even measured with a laser pointer.

wait i'm getting too deep.

The range i just dug up is 50-65mm. I used to consult Paterek's book, but i misplaced that in 2009. I'd stay away from the short end unless putting extra weight up front or wanting a nervous nelly.

[GrayJay]

Probably the most informative description of the effects of fork trail I have found is on Tom's spectrum site;
Spectrum Cycles | Geometry

Ive gained my best firsthand experience with trail by riding bikes with extreme trail to magnify the effects, make it easier to feel. Try taking an old junker fork and re-raking it to alternately setup a bike with 100mm trail and 40mm trail. Ride them both and feel the extreme of the range (then toss the fork).

Interesting to note that Merckx had a preference for low fork trail number on rough roads, seems rather counter-intuitve as most all modern bikes use a relativly high trail for dealing with rough/offroad conditions (for example, production CX and MTB bikes that are most typically in the 65-80mm trail range).

I noticed a cyclocross magazine pro bike profile recently (maybe it was Johnathan Page's bike??) where he listed that he hauled around a couple of forks with different rake to the races, apparently in order to be able to fine tune the bikes trail to suit different CX course conditions. All I can figure is that on very soft conditions (like sand), the wheel contact point shifts forward as the tire sinks, effectivly making the trail even higher. Is this reason enough to start with a lower trail setting, so that when it sinks a more normal trail is reached? What other CX trail tuning considerations might there be to warrant switching out a fork?

[jamaris]

Probably the most informative description of the effects of fork trail I have found is on Tom's spectrum site;
Spectrum Cycles | Geometry

Ive gained my best firsthand experience with trail by riding bikes with extreme trail to magnify the effects, make it easier to feel. Try taking an old junker fork and re-raking it to alternately setup a bike with 100mm trail and 40mm trail. Ride them both and feel the extreme of the range (then toss the fork).

Interesting to note that Merckx had a preference for low fork trail number on rough roads, seems rather counter-intuitve as most all modern bikes use a relativly high trail for dealing with rough/offroad conditions (for example, production CX and MTB bikes that are most typically in the 65-80mm trail range).

I noticed a cyclocross magazine pro bike profile recently (maybe it was Johnathan Page's bike??) where he listed that he hauled around a couple of forks with different rake to the races, apparently in order to be able to fine tune the bikes trail to suit different CX course conditions. All I can figure is that on very soft conditions (like sand), the wheel contact point shifts forward as the tire sinks, effectivly making the trail even higher. Is this reason enough to start with a lower trail setting, so that when it sinks a more normal trail is reached? What other CX trail tuning considerations might there be to warrant switching out a fork?

Maybe a separate thread for this type of trail? Since as I understand it, it varies significantly from road bikes.

[bellman]

You might look for info on the older 80's trek frame/fork combos. It seems to me like they were running 43-49mm of trail (not rake in case someone thinks i'm confused) and they handled quite nicely as they still enjoy an enthusiastic following.

[Andrew R Stewart]

There's a lot of variation in what people believe a "proper' trail should be. The Jan Heine dimension (not picking on Jan, just using his vast writings as a category) might be 38mm. This is considered to be pretty low trail. The claims, if i understand them, is that on rough roads and or with a front bag the handling will be "right". No over or under steering. The last couple of decades has seen the production racer crowd use 60-65mm trail often. This might be considered long trail. This seems to produce understeering/stability at speed and/or with a rear placed load. This is a very simple condencing of what i've read and experienced but I think it represents the range and handling natures. I am open for correction or a better understanding.

My riding experience and preferences go towards the longer trail dimension. I'm a short guy with the usual light upper body of a rider. I do carry some weight over the rear wheel many times, my touring loads are 65/35 rear biased. I don't have issues with low speed control/stability and look for mid to higher speed stability. I have had a lot of bikes with "speed man's shimmy". I like a more flexible frame.

So over the years of building my frames I have tended towards 61-63mm of trail and 71-72 degree head angles. My last couple of frames have been the most shimmy free and nice handling that I have made. The couple of frames from 10+ years ago with 55-58mm trail have not been as nice feeling.

But i will say that trail taken as a goal independent of other factors is not the fate complete that some seem to make it. The balance of frt to rr weight, the bb height, the stem length, the seat set back, the frame's stiffness torsionally all contribute to the road results. As another said- experiment and ride a lot of bikes then make something. Just don't expect the world to open up with the first bike you make. Andy.

[GrayJay]

I noticed a cyclocross magazine pro bike profile recently (maybe it was Johnathan Page's bike??) where he listed that he hauled around a couple of forks with different rake to the races, apparently in order to be able to fine tune the bikes trail to suit different CX course conditions. All I can figure is that on very soft conditions (like sand), the wheel contact point shifts forward as the tire sinks, effectivly making the trail even higher. Is this reason enough to start with a lower trail setting, so that when it sinks a more normal trail is reached? What other CX trail tuning considerations might there be to warrant switching out a fork?

I got this backwards when I wrote it - sinking tire & forward moving contact patch result in decreased trail, not increased.

[Curt Goodrich]

I got this backwards when I wrote it - sinking tire & forward moving contact patch result in decreased trail, not increased.

I think you're over thinking this. In the case of Jonathon Page and the different forks, I'll bet a dozen donuts the decision process about which fork offset to use is based on just what feels right at the time. The trail is never discussed and doubtful that it's even considered. Most racers and for that matter most riders like what they like and that can change from day to day.