Attorneys: Liability Exposure When Building Frames for No Personal Compensation

[jclay]

If an amateur framebuilder constructs no more than a few bicycle frames/year for individuals in exchange for their providing the materials and making monetary contributions directly to agreed upon political candidates or good works organizations of the builder’s choosing, could the builder and his/her assets (assuming a competent, detailed release of liability) be protected against liability and injury claims (without going bankrupt in the process)?

Because I enjoy the craft and that type of bicycle, I’d like to build no more than two or three all-road/randonneur frame/fork sets per year for the numerous folks that have been requesting same for some years now. I am not interested in a commercial venture and am unwilling to expose myself to liability/financial ruin for doing so. Could this or some other type of arrangement achieve my goal?

If there any attorneys on VS that could give me a quick yes/maybe/no read on it I’d sure appreciate it. If the answer is a slam dunk “no, you can’t really be protected” then it will save me some trouble and dosh; if “yes” or “maybe” then I’ll know to seek solid, paid counsel.

Thanks much!

[rwsaunders]

If an amateur framebuilder constructs no more than a few bicycle frames/year for individuals in exchange for their providing the materials and making monetary contributions directly to agreed upon political candidates or good works organizations of the builder’s choosing, could the builder and his/her assets (assuming a competent, detailed release of liability) be protected against liability and injury claims (without going bankrupt in the process)?

Because I enjoy the craft and that type of bicycle, I’d like to build no more than two or three all-road/randonneur frame/fork sets per year for the numerous folks that have been requesting same for some years now. I am not interested in a commercial venture and am unwilling to expose myself to liability/financial ruin for doing so. Could this or some other type of arrangement achieve my goal?

If there any attorneys on VS that could give me a quick yes/maybe/no read on it I’d sure appreciate it. If the answer is a slam dunk “no, you can’t really be protected” then it will save me some trouble and dosh; if “yes” or “maybe” then I’ll know to seek solid, paid counsel.

Thanks much!

I’m not an attorney nor do I play one on tv, but wise counsel once advised me about the potential outcome of a case that we were assisting a client with…”it depends”.

[TonyP]

i’m not an attorney nor do i play one on tv, but wise counsel once advised me about the potential outcome of a case that we were assisting a client with…”it depends”.

wtf

[Mabouya]

wtf

I believe he means something similar to "it's complicated."

[rwsaunders]

I believe he means something similar to "it's complicated."

Yep…Louis is correct.

I’m a young(er) construction project manager at the time and it involved a construction claim from an electrical sub for foundations for football field lighting standards. There was no question in my mind that the claim was erroneous, but nonetheless, we moved through mediation to arbitration over a period of 15 months. In a prep meeting priory to the arbitration hearing, I commented to our client’s attorney that “this was black and white imho and we will win the case, right?”. The attorney responded with “it depends”, stating things like perhaps the opposing counsel has a more compelling defense prepared, or the arbitrator might not like the client’s attorney based on rumors of his court demeanor, or perhaps her husband gave her a hard time this morning and I remind her of him…that kind of discussion. It’s stuck with me throughout my career and I share this story often with younger PM’s, trying to tell them to open their eyes and ears, as everything that you see and believe, is sometimes not translated in the same manner to others. Yes, we won the arbitration as the sub came off as unprepared and combative under cross, but it still cost our client 5 figures in legal fees and time. Less than the claim, but the sub would have been better to agree to mediate.

[jclay]

Yep…Louis is correct.

I’m a young(er) construction project manager at the time and it involved a construction claim from an electrical sub for foundations for football field lighting standards. There was no question in my mind that the claim was erroneous, but nonetheless, we moved through mediation to arbitration over a period of 15 months. In a prep meeting priory to the arbitration hearing, I commented to our client’s attorney that “this was black and white imho and we will win the case, right?”. The attorney responded with “it depends”, stating things like perhaps the opposing counsel has a more compelling defense prepared, or the arbitrator might not like the client’s attorney based on rumors of his court demeanor, or perhaps her husband gave her a hard time this morning and I remind her of him…that kind of discussion. It’s stuck with me throughout my career and I share this story often with younger PM’s, trying to tell them to open their eyes and ears, as everything that you see and believe, is sometimes not translated in the same manner to others. Yes, we won the arbitration as the sub came off as unprepared and combative under cross, but it still cost our client 5 figures in legal fees and time. Less than the claim, but the sub would have been better to agree to mediate.

I'm similarly professionally experienced....so one might reasonably wonder why the Q. It's a good question....caught me being an optimist maybe? I'm not often accused of that but sometimes I hope against hope that there might be a way....even when I'm pretty sure there isn't. Yeah....that's it...I'm practicing optimism. You heard it here first! Though even with E&O insurance a friend was personally, financially demolished as a result of a case against her for which she was ultimately found innocent. So, it's not like the insured framebuilder pros are actually fully protected against ruin, just better protected than otherwise.

It's too bad there almost certainly won't be a way 'cause these are cool bikes, I enjoy making them, doing so could power some good works and I have lotsa folks asking.

It's a nice thought. I think I'll pop on some music and wash the dishes.

[steve garro]

I’m not an attorney nor do I play one on tv, but wise counsel once advised me about the potential outcome of a case that we were assisting a client with…”it depends”.

Yep.
There are only three answers:

Yes
No
I don't recall

- Garro.