Sizing & fit when the customer is not present

[Chris.T]

I'd like to know how everyone is working out sizing when the customer cannot be present..
I'm talking fit more than than geometry & handling... so working out things like seat height, seat setback, bar drop, top tube length/compartment, etc.

Do you let the customer take care of it and build from the fit dimensions that they supply?
Do you get their body dimensions and plug them into a calculator? Which calculator?
Do you send them into a LBS to be measured/fitted/etc?
Do you take measurements from an existing bike?
What dimensions are you taking (from bike and/or body)?


What is your process?
...If you dont mind sharing!

[Too Tall]

Chris, if you will allow me to be part of this conversation maybe I can add positively? I am not a builder I'm one of "those guys" who builders trust (g-d help me) to assess clients and send the measures. Sometimes builders tell me EXACTLY what they want and other times builders just want to hear my numbers and dialogue. I plug everything into BikeCAD and supply that if requested only to the builder never the customer...I DO NOT design bikes.

[Andrew R Stewart]

I'd want the customer's current bike's numbers and their comments about this bike as well. It's nice to know what to avoid as well as where to go. Andy.

[steve garro]

IDo you send them into a LBS to be measured/fitted/etc?

Anything - ANYTHING but this.
Now I can sleep well knowing I did something good for someone today.
- Garro.

[sam]

Im not yet building frames myself, but do deal with other framebuilders for my customers and consider fitting a big part of my bike shop so I will chime in. I usually get asked for the numbers from there current bike, as well as numbers we came up with on our fitting cycle. I also get asked for their body measurements. In addition to being asked for these things I also supply a picture of them on their current bike as well as the fitting cycle. Most of the builders that us bike shops deal with, usually I.F., serotta, seven and the like, tend to build from the numbers supplied from the fit cycle- unless it does not seem to jive for some reason.

I like suppling pictures, I am having a frame built for a customer right now, where he needed 9cm of bar drop on his mtb. The builder questioned this and suggested 5cm, after he seen the picture he could see this guy has arms as long as a silverback gorrilla and is actually sitting pretty upright for 9cm of drop.
As a fitter and dealing with all sorts of people, I find a good number of people who think they have a good fit- but dont and when trying something else find out they were wrong. Or simply ride the bike how it came out of the bike shop and never even moved the saddle. I think for a lot of the everyday cyclist you cant trust there numbers.
As far as trusting a fitter, I dont know how much you can do that either as many shops have so-called fitters, so unless you know the fitter I dont know I would trust their numbers either.
so I think it depends on the customer and thier background if you can trust their numbers, i think you need to get all the info you can and find a system that works well for you

[Dave Anderson]

Im not yet building frames myself, but do deal with other framebuilders for my customers and consider fitting a big part of my bike shop so I will chime in. I usually get asked for the numbers from there current bike, as well as numbers we came up with on our fitting cycle. I also get asked for their body measurements. In addition to being asked for these things I also supply a picture of them on their current bike as well as the fitting cycle. Most of the builders that us bike shops deal with, usually I.F., serotta, seven and the like, tend to build from the numbers supplied from the fit cycle- unless it does not seem to jive for some reason.

I like suppling pictures, I am having a frame built for a customer right now, where he needed 9cm of bar drop on his mtb. The builder questioned this and suggested 5cm, after he seen the picture he could see this guy has arms as long as a silverback gorrilla and is actually sitting pretty upright for 9cm of drop.
As a fitter and dealing with all sorts of people, I find a good number of people who think they have a good fit- but dont and when trying something else find out they were wrong. Or simply ride the bike how it came out of the bike shop and never even moved the saddle. I think for a lot of the everyday cyclist you cant trust there numbers.
As far as trusting a fitter, I dont know how much you can do that either as many shops have so-called fitters, so unless you know the fitter I dont know I would trust their numbers either.
so I think it depends on the customer and thier background if you can trust their numbers, i think you need to get all the info you can and find a system that works well for you

This is pretty good advice. Especially this part

i think you need to get all the info you can and find a system that works well for you

Most of it comes down to experience and figuring out what works for you. And to add to Steve's comment about bike shops, it can be pretty scary sometimes seeing what comes out of a LBS. Having said that, though, there are some good fitters out there that do a nice job.......however, one of the bigger problems with many shop based fitters is that they often try to talk the customer out of your bike and into whatever "custom" or other brand the shop sells ..........and many seem to be confused about the difference between "fit" and frame design.....avoid any fitter that tries to give you stuff like TT and ST length instead of the stuff you asked for, like saddle height, set back, reach to the bars, & etc.

Dave

[steve garro]

.......however, one of the bigger problems with many shop based fitters is that they often try to talk the customer out of your bike and into whatever "custom" or other brand the shop sells ...........

Dave

Listen to Dave on this one or learn it the hard way like I did in a crash course of how to loose 2K+ and your summer va-ca.
- Garro.

[suspectdevice]

-First ride bikes really fast for a long time- sublimating the physics and anatomic issues at hand is the #1 thing. It's a 3d world with 5 degrees of freedom and whole lot of bones and muscles. Understanding that shit is important, as is being able to picture how small changes make larger differences.

-Secondableeey converse as much as you can with a customer without having them give you numbers or pictures. Listen well and try to steer the direction to place where people might open up about percieved weakness and defficencies. That gives you a datapoint to work backwards from once you see how their bike is currently setup. Datapoint- as in one hardpoint in a complex system. So many damn linkages and muscles.

-Thirdably reconcile what they said with what you see. Cognitive dissonance may be one of the largest reasons people seek a made to measure bike. If it looks wrong, it is wrong. Draw up the bike they have now while you're at it. Get inside it. Would you do something differently? Is it worth doing something differently? Maybe the rider is just too short and too high on the bike and 80% of their physical complaints are a result of wonky vehicle dynamics. The large majority of people are already on the right bike that's setup wrong, a key thing to keep in mind.

- Stuff goes on from there but as far as I'm concerned there isn't much more you could do in person besides working on knee tracking issues, leg length discrepancies or tiny bits of cleat setup.

I haven't been selling these things long enough to know what level of service to offer at a given price point, or how much of that bullshit to build into the cost of the frame. Sometimes it takes 20 minutes to draw a bike, sometimes it takes me prying information out of people, making free-body diagrams, closing my eyes and spinning around or eating two burritos at once, all difficult, time consuming tasks.

Caveat-
It's safe to ignore everything if an experienced racer comes to you with a set of numbers and asks you to build it. Just make sure it's not wrong first and find out why, for some reason they want you to build a bike.
It's not your place to fuck with their numbers unless they need to be fucked with. If they've been winning crits since the early 90's they're doing it right.

Caveat2-
Unless you've ridden and dined with the "pro" "fitter" that a customer is talking about, just take the sheet of paper and say thank you. You can look back at it later to see how things might be different. Lot's of these guys went to a "fit school". I went to Space Camp. Those jerks at NASA never called me back even though I aced the fake landing in the fake shuttle.