Messer Starlight 1302 Torch Handle

[NickyD]

I recently posted this in the General Discussion section, i guess I'd be better putting it here. :-)


Hi there.
I'm new to this forum and I'm really keen to set myself up to start building some frames. I live in New Zealand, all the advise I can find on Brazing torches seems to be for the American market. I wondered if anyone can recommend the Messer Starlight 1302 system for general frame building, its a gorgeous piece of kit but I'm a bit concerned that its too small for all applications inc Lug work . I want to set myself up with decent gear from the start as I am a high quality freak and intend to produce high quality frames, I can only imagine that high quality tools are a good start if this is the end goal.
I love this Forum, invaluable information for someone stuck on the other side of the world with no framebuilding courses nearby :-)
http://digitalweld.co.nz/uploads/Pro...dle%201302.pdf

[bencooper]

Looks plenty good enough to me - I use a Meco Midget which is quite a bit smaller.

[NickyD]

Thanks for the reply Ben, do you use that for lug work?

[NickyD]

http://digitalweld.co.nz/uploads/Pro...dle%201302.pdf

[bencooper]

Yes, it's fine for lugs - though I mostly fillet my frames.

[Kumo Cycles]

Looks good to me,

else you should be able to pick up a Harris craftsman torch from Australia without too hefty a shipping cost

[Mark Kelly]

Or even locally; there's a Harris NZ in the impossibly beautiful town of Napier.

[NickyD]

That looks like a nice unit too, thanks guys. I'm a bit worried about the small torch route as everything I seem to see in the media from framebuilding courses and old school frame builders seems to show them using Large Brazing torches. Do you reckon this is a cost thing, a durability thing or an old school thing? Or is it actually better to go for a large handle system? The small ones look gorgeous and are way easier to handle I would think.

[Kumo Cycles]

My craftsman is small ish, does everything I need with need for only a few tips.

And a light weight unit becomes quite a benefit when you are waving the damn thing around all day, save the wrists and all that

[Doug Fattic]

That looks like a nice unit too, thanks guys. I'm a bit worried about the small torch route as everything I seem to see in the media from framebuilding courses and old school frame builders seems to show them using Large Brazing torches. Do you reckon this is a cost thing, a durability thing or an old school thing? Or is it actually better to go for a large handle system? The small ones look gorgeous and are way easier to handle I would think.

NickyD, I looked at the link you provided and couldn't tell from the picture or description how big that torch handle actually was so I didn't comment on it. Neither did it show what kind of mixer/elbow/tips were available. I wrote about the American made torch handles and the philosophy behind choosing a small one as the best option in the acetylene vs propane subject thread. However they can't be as small as the Smith Little torch used in jewelry work. The heat from the joint is too much for such small unit. The Victor J-28, Smith AW1A and Uniweld 71 torches are about 6" (15cm) long and have mixer/tips that add another 5 or 6 inches to the total length. This is about as small as you want to go. Light hoses are also a plus.

The reason for the bigger torch handles (with the adjuster knobs at the bottom rather than up near the elbow) is because most people want to use them with a cutting head attachment. There is no advantage to use them in brazing a bicycle frame. By the way you won't see any of those bigger torch handles in pictures in my framebuilding classes and I've actually taught them longer than anyone else anywhere.

[Andrew R Stewart]

When i started out building i used a small chrome plated Goss #42W. At some point about 20 years ago i got it in my mind that to be good I needed a big torch so i got a Purex W-300. I built a few frames with it. But as i was young and wrenching full time i had the guns to handle it, awkward as it was. Then the Interweb came to be and i could see what others used, realized my choice was perhaps not the best and got a Purex W-200. This torch is only slightly larger then the Goss (and the AW-1 as another example). It is so much easier to handle, aim, hold. Maybe, in my now part time wrenching age, i have lost some arm strength but this mid/small torch is vastly easier to work with. The placement of the valves is not much of the issue for me, just the heft. Andy.

[NickyD]

Thanks for the comments guys, the Messer unit is about 6" long and also comes with small diameter hoses that are way light, Its much bigger than a jewellers torch. They use them on the production line at Fischer and Paykel for brazing domestic fridge cabinets. I'm just a bit concerned that the largest tip size may be too small. I'll get some more info on it from the importer and pass it on. Its awesome for gas welding steel as I've tried it in the shop, but I'm wondering, because even though I haven't tried doing it yet, I'm guessing you need a fairly large flame to evenly heat up a whole IC lug to braze it properly. (Its quite difficult to describe this sort of thing isn't it).
I guess if anyone can tell me what is the largest size tip you would need to build bicycle frames using a torch that excepts standard type tips and mixers then I can go to the Messer Distributor and ask whether the Messer tips ( which I understand are their own standard) are capable of reaching the same flame size?
Awesome to be able to communicate with like minded people through this forum.

[dbohemian]

I guess if anyone can tell me what is the largest size tip you would need to build bicycle frames using a torch that excepts standard type tips and mixers then I can go to the Messer Distributor and ask whether the Messer tips ( which I understand are their own standard) are capable of reaching the same flame size?

This tip chart put up by bike smith design shows the various tips and includes Messer.

Welding Tip Size Comparison Chart

The Messer will have no problem brazing with a large enough flame. I have three different torches in the shop (actually five, but only three I commonly use) I use one for fillet brazing and for lug brazing I like a pretty big flame. I find it easier to do with a medium sized handle. But to each his own and certainly you can braze just about anything with an aircraft style torch. The Messer looks really nice and did I understand that correctly that you can buy a mixer to handle just about any companies tips out there? That is a good idea.

[Doug Fattic]

From Mark Stonich's chart that Dave posted a link to, I see that the Messer tip #2 is .742mm in diameter and tip #3 is 1.181mm. That might not seem like much but is actually quite a spread in-between tip sizes. The #2 is smaller than what I use and the #3 bigger (except for when using propane). Most beginners have trouble with a big tip because it heats up material faster than then can figure out what is going on and how to compensate. It is usually easier to start out with a smaller flame so things happen slower. When things become more automatic then they can increase tip size. Pros like to get in and out fast with bigger tips. If you took a poll of tip sizes commonly used by hobbyists and pros, you would find a wide variation of preferences.

So the challenge for a learner doing a practice lug with a small tip is that their flame pattern has to be more precise to cover the area where silver is to go more evenly. A typical beginner mistake is to kind of overheat one small area and not heat up another enough so the silver won't flow through evenly because of an inconsistent flame pattern. On the other hand a bigger flame provides more even heat (especially if it is held a bit further back) but requires more instant corrective motions. Often times in the beginning too much heat and too slow of a reaction makes a mess. A bigger tip also makes it more difficult to clean the shorelines so extra silver isn't poking out where it doesn't belong. It still makes sense to start practicing with a smaller tip like the Messer #2.

You didn't indicate if you were using propane or acetylene? That makes a difference in what size tip to recommend. Because propane produces a cooler flame it requires a bigger tip size. It also makes it easier for beginners because it takes longer to heat up a joint and they have more time to get it. It appears that this Messer torch can have different mixer connectors so you can attach almost any brand of mixer/tips to the handle? Then you can go to a more intermediate size tip than the Messer #3.

[JFW]

I believe the Messer is an injector type torch. This has been discussed on the framebuilders list quite recently. Search it up.

Truls

[dbohemian]

I believe the Messer is an injector type torch. This has been discussed on the framebuilders list quite recently. Search it up.

Truls

Yes, please look it up. If the Messer is an injector style, I would skip it.....I really don't feel the injector styles are as good as the equal pressure types. It may not be too hard to just make a big order from the U.S.A. I know the shipping is horrendous but if you get guages, lightweight hoses, body and tips it may work out better for you.

[Kumo Cycles]

Make sure you double check the threads on the oxy and fuel lines when buying from the US.

When I looked into buying a torch from the US I noticed that the connector for the Oxy line had a different thread than Aussie lines, and thus Aussie Oxy bottles.

Easy enough to change I imagine, but a trap for the unwary

Yes, please look it up. If the Messer is an injector style, I would skip it.....I really don't feel the injector styles are as good as the equal pressure types. It may not be too hard to just make a big order from the U.S.A. I know the shipping is horrendous but if you get guages, lightweight hoses, body and tips it may work out better for you.

[bencooper]

I've found the same the with my Midget - the fittings and hoses are only identified as A and B sized, and the B size is a couple of mm smaller than the 3/8" BSP that's standard in the UK (and I think most of the world). Managed to bodge it, but I've not yet worked out how to get my economiser connected in.

[NickyD]

Great replies guys, I think I've decided on the Harris handle as shown below. Not sure which model yet the salesman will come and visit next month and let me have a look at them. I actually made a mistake saying it was the 1302 Messer handle that I'd tried, it was actually the mini thermMiniTherm.png which although you can get large ish tips for it, I think is too small for allround use and the tips are a special type so will be expensive. Gorgeous build quality though and I guess it would be great for braze ons so maybe as a second torch in the future it might be an option. It was over a year ago in Auckland that I tried it and missed it in the on-line brochure.


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[Kumo Cycles]

Harris handle bottom right is the one that I use.

Wouldn't change it for the world