Virus thread, the political one.

[GrantM]

When I look at the pictures, I tend to think they spend most of their budget on military hardware/weapons.

It seems like that.
But most of the budget is going to be salary.
Same with public transit, and schools.

-g

[GrantM]

ACADEMY PHYSICAL TRAINING PROGRAM | Join LAPD

If you are selected for the LAPD, you will be sent to the world famous LAPD Academy for six months of training. Training is rigorous, demanding and exhausting.

The LAPD Police Academy Curriculum:

Academics

Encompasses arrest and booking procedures, preliminary investigation techniques, radio and communications, report writing, traffic investigation, and traffic enforcement.

Driving

Includes the Emergency Vehicle Operations Course, which covers defensive driving, pursuit policy, and safe vehicle handling.

Firearms Training

Includes weapon care and safety, marksmanship, tactical manipulation with the sidearm and shotgun, and chemical agents handling (Police candidates are strongly discouraged from seeking firearms instruction prior to entering the Police Academy. Poor marksmanship habits may be developed that are difficult or impossible to overcome.).

Human Relations

Includes cultural sensitivity training, sexual harassment issues, media relations, stress management, disability awareness, community relations, tactical communications, hate crimes, missing persons, and domestic violence.

Law

Covers search and seizure, evidence, laws of arrest, crimes against persons and property, sex crimes, crimes against children, and other general criminal statutes falling under the California Penal Code, Los Angeles Municipal Code, Welfare and Institutions Code, and Federal Laws.

Physical Training

Builds strength and endurance through physical conditioning while promoting a positive attitude toward a fitness lifestyle. It also encompasses training in physical arrest techniques, controls, and weaponless defense.

Tactics

Covers patrol techniques and procedures, crimes in progress, building searches, vehicle stops, use of deadly force, and shooting policy.

LAPD Specific Training

Includes Advanced Tactical Training, Mobile Field Force Tactics, Patrol Ride-Along, Mobile Digital Computer (in-car computer) Training, Alcohol Abuse, Administration of Discipline, Cultural Diversity, K-9 Operations, Air Support Operations, Bomb Squad, Community Policing and Problem Solving, Spanish Language, Civil Liabilities, and Sexual Harassment Training.

That's an incredible amount of content to cover in 6 months.
I could imagine that some of those topics they spend an hour to tick the box.

-g

[vertical_doug]

http://cao.lacity.org/budget19-20/20...sed_Budget.pdf

Page 146 is where Police Budget starts.
Salaries are about 1/2 of all costs. Next largest are Pension and Benefits.

About 70% of all costs are these two.

[htwoopup]

It seems like that.
But most of the budget is going to be salary.
Same with public transit, and schools.

-g

In the 19th precinct of the NYPD, the CO Kathleen Walsh made just north of 167,000 last year. In the school district covering the same geography I couldn't find any teacher with the same number of digits.

Now that is one example. And while an illustrative example it is a telling one.

[vertical_doug]

In the 19th precinct of the NYPD, the CO Kathleen Walsh made just north of 167,000 last year. In the school district covering the same geography I couldn't find any teacher with the same number of digits.

Now that is one example. And while an illustrative example it is a telling one.

SeeThroughNY :: Payrolls

Yes, but there is a lot going on there. The CO is not even making as much as some of her line officers, correctional officers, or fire fighters who can collect overtime. Pension Spiking is a still a thing in NYS. So seeing a guy who has a 80,000 salary, makes 200,000 + in overtime is not uncommon.

[Corso]

Don't forget the fact the Police on the street puts his life at risk everyday he's out there.

How much of a salary do you think is fair for that?

[vertical_doug]

Don't forget the fact the Police on the street puts his life at risk everyday he's out there.

How much of a salary do you think is fair for that?

about 150 law enforcement officers die in the line of duty every year. More soldiers die each year.

Congress seems to think a Private First Class with 4 yrs experience is worth 27,633.60 / year.. Who am I to argue with congress?

[BBB]

This is a common issue in every country. The armed services, police, fire fighters etc work in a job that comes with risk. Hence while they should be paid a fair wage, they elect to go into that job knowing the risk. How do you balance that out?

[ides1056]

The 1 most dangerous jobs in America, according to BLS data

ask a dairy farmer or a logger how easy they have it

[monadnocky]

Don't forget the fact the Police on the street puts his life at risk everyday he's out there.

How much of a salary do you think is fair for that?

Loggers, traditionally, have the highest death rate per capita.
A quick search indicates that they, on average, earn about 40k per year.
Police don't even make the top 10 most dangerous (in terms of loss of life, or career-ending injury due to job responsibility) jobs in the US.

Agricultural (esp. meat workers) are more at risk. And they're paid cents on the dollar compared to police.

[thollandpe]

Don't forget the fact the Police on the street puts his life at risk everyday he's out there.

How much of a salary do you think is fair for that?

Loggers put their life on the line every day that they’re out there.
Commercial fishers put their life on the line every day that they’re out there.
Pilots put their life on the line every day
Roofers put their life on the line every day
Garbage collectors put their life on the line
Truck drivers put their life on the line
American farmers and agricultural workers put their life on the line
Steel workers
Landscapers
Electrical line workers
Groundskeepers...

All those jobs are more dangerous. And the invisible hand of the market has chosen how much of a salary or wage we think is fair for that.

I’ve had enough of the myth of the invisible hand.

[Corso]

This was my original reply:
"Don't forget the fact the Police on the street puts his life at risk everyday he's out there.

How much of a salary do you think is fair for that?"

I didn't ask for a list of other high risk jobs, and none of you answered my one simple question.

You'd all make great politicians, answering questions with answers that weren't asked...

[monadnocky]

This was my original reply:
"Don't forget the fact the Police on the street puts his life at risk everyday he's out there.

How much of a salary do you think is fair for that?"

I didn't ask for a list of other high risk jobs, and none of you answered my one simple question.

You'd all make great politicians, answering questions with answers that weren't asked...

So, your question presupposes that police officers' salaries should be proportional to the (deadly) risk they face?
Based on this, less than the 40K (median) that loggers earn? Or any of the many professions that are riskier, in terms of loss of life, or injury?
Am I missing something? You are the one who introduced the "life at risk" metric.

[ides1056]

Corso, don't put words in my mouth. I am no politician. Not now, not ever. I have known cops, and their lives were hard. Huge stress. They did not drink Bud Lite all day long like the loggers and farmers I know. But when I see a cop shoot a guy running away from them...

bah

[GrantM]

In the 19th precinct of the NYPD, the CO Kathleen Walsh made just north of 167,000 last year. In the school district covering the same geography I couldn't find any teacher with the same number of digits.

Now that is one example. And while an illustrative example it is a telling one.

It wasn't my intention to compare the pay levels of police vs bus drivers vs school teachers,
I was simply pointing out the fact these publicly funded institutions largest expense in their budgets is people not things.

-g

[beeatnik]

about 150 law enforcement officers die in the line of duty every year. More soldiers die each year.

Congress seems to think a Private First Class with 4 yrs experience is worth 27,633.60 / year.. Who am I to argue with congress?

According to the FBI's "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA) report, 89 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2019. Of these, 48 officers died as a result of felonious acts, and 41 officers died in on-duty accidents.

Of the officers feloniously killed, average age was 40 years old. The slain officers had served in law enforcement for an average of 13 years at the times of the fatal incidents. Of the 48 officers:

45 were male
3 were female
40 were white
7 were black/African American
1 was Asian

FBI Releases 219 Statistics on Police Officers Killed in the Line of Duty - Patrol - POLICE Magazine

https://www.nr.edu/adj/pdf/nsleed.pdf

[Corso]

So, your question presupposes that police officers' salaries should be proportional to the (deadly) risk they face?
Based on this, less than the 40K (median) that loggers earn? Or any of the many professions that are riskier, in terms of loss of life, or injury?
Am I missing something? You are the one who introduced the "life at risk" metric.

We're talking about the Police here aren't we? Introducing other occupations (of course the military) is a shuffle away from the point.

Of all the other jobs listed, I don't see another where the person is in danger of getting killed bey another human.

Next time someone is taken hostage or a bank is robbed, I guess we should just call a logger.

[Matthew Strongin]

We're talking about the Police here aren't we? Introducing other occupations (of course the military) is a shuffle away from the point.

Of all the other jobs listed, I don't see another where the person is in danger of getting killed bey another human.

Next time someone is taken hostage or a bank is robbed, I guess we should just call a logger.

I think the point that some folks are making is that the data doesn't support the idea that being a police officer is so much more dangerous of a job than others. Personally, I'm ok with police officers making a good income. I think some of those other occupations should also make more money for the dangerous work they do and teachers should certainly make more for the critical work they do, but that's a conversation for another day. When it comes to cops, though, I have a hard time reconciling the very high hazard pay and the upfront knowledge of the job risks that they assume when becoming cops with the (what are now) countless examples we have of excessive force being used when officers are afraid. The job is risky and high stress, but that's the job. Shooting first and asking questions later is unacceptable for people who are paid to maintain peace in the community, even if they fear for their safety. So is forcibly restraining someone because of something they said, as we've seen much of during recent events. That's not policing, that's assault. Qualified immunity should be ended and police should be held accountable to the same laws they are well paid to enforce.

[Mark Kelly]

Of all the other jobs listed, I don't see another where the person is in danger of getting killed bey (sic) another human.

But they are killed by other humans, usually those in management positions who have calculated the cost of providing better safety systems and decided against doing so.

BTW this same argument is germane to your question of what is the danger worth. In the USA the statistical value of a life is about $10 million. A US law enforcement officer has about a 1 in 10,000 chance of dying in the line of duty in a single year*, so the breakeven is logically $1000 PA or about 1% of current salaries.




*There are about 800,000 law enforcement officers in the country, of whom about 80 die in the line of duty in a given year.

[monadnocky]

We're talking about the Police here aren't we? Introducing other occupations (of course the military) is a shuffle away from the point.

Of all the other jobs listed, I don't see another where the person is in danger of getting killed bey another human.

Next time someone is taken hostage or a bank is robbed, I guess we should just call a logger.

Might just result in fewer people being killed, I wonder.

Lots of people work in jobs where they can be killed by another human being. Perhaps less so than being in the police, but the chance is not zero, statistically.

Look, I'm not at the point that I think that all police officers are terrible people, nor do I think their role is unnecessary. I do think that, nationwide, the role of police in our society needs to be fundamentally re-examined and meaningful structural reforms need to be enacted. Not the window-dressing in which we have enacted in the past. What does this mean for us, as non-police, citizens who are (presumably) protected and served by them?

For me, the first step needs to be decreasing the mythologizing regarding police officers, and stopping the outright hero worship that accompanies this. This attitude has been leveraged by police forces to gain vast amounts of undeserved political power and social capital (remember the state trooper scandal in MA?) That includes the very notion that they are in danger every day so let's give them what they want, and always give them the benefit of the doubt (I know you are not advocating this here). From infancy, children - especially (White) boys - are inculcated with the very notion that police officers are a special breed, worthy of adulation and respect by the very fact that they are in a police uniform. We need to take this unearned privilege down a few notches for change to happen. I believe that this type of change would benefit the police themselves, but those are thoughts for another day...

I'm not advocating disrespect, but I can think of no other profession that enjoys such widespread perceptions (perhaps the military, or firefighters). At the end of the day, I see this as one of the structural elements that results in the crisis that we are in today.

If only teachers, or clinical social workers, enjoyed such blind support. Can you imagine? (note again, I'm not accusing you of "blind support" - just using the term rhetorically).