What happens when one fitter disagrees with another fitter (v. by 4cm)

[Booger]

Me: Being all torso and no legs (6'1", 32" inseam), fit has always been difficult. Currently ride a 140mm deda newton pista stem on a 58cm R3 that still leaves me a little short of where fitter #1 says I should be. My world was rocked.. rocked I tell you when fitter number two delivered a stunner.


In Corner #1: Local guy. Famous local guy in famous cycling town who gets a mention anytime someone asks about a fitter. Seems to prefer wobblenaught-esque principles and has probably been at it since I was in diapers.

His position: I need to be out there on the bars. Like way the hell out there (836mm from widest point of saddle to center of stem). Farther out there than any stock frame + 140mm stem can get me and still allow ~15cm of drop. I have always felt stretched out, but the internet confirmed too much is never enough.


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In Corner #2: Pro level guy in town as a ringer. Too many endorsements to list. Olympians, entire domestic teams, etc. Angles, lasers, and spinscan are the weapons of choice.

His position: Takes one look at me spinning on the computrainer and asks wtf am I doing so far out? Measures some arm/shoulder/back angles and does some laser work before strongly suggesting I should come back 4cm ("at least 2cm"). Bonus point: Local cat 1 fast guy watching from the couch asserts that I'm farther out than the fastest local guys.


The guy known for race fits is going against the local guru and telling me to come back? Twilight zone. Shortening my reach does feel more comfortable, but of course it does. Advices, anyone?

[Jonathan]

Advices, anyone?

yeah I do. Go with what your body says is right. Only you can really know what works.

[soBRIquet]

I have always felt stretched out, but the internet confirmed too much is never enough.

Really? Where have you read that?
Relying heavily on the internet (or using to break a tie) is a dangerous thing.

[swoop]

did someone tell you there's a single answer? that person lied to you.

ps, with your body you're gonna want custom.

pss, my vote is numba 2.

[54ny77]

jonathan in his post up there hit the nail on the head.

sorry, but unless you're a top rider, i think a full tilt boogie fit with the video games, chakra cleansing, sharks with frickin' laser beams and all that jazz (which yields that all-valuable single digit % improvement that makes all the difference in the world), really ain't much more special than knowing the basics & what makes you comfortable. experiment a little with tiny incremental adjustments, and set it up yourself. then set it and forget it, just like the ronco rotisserie oven.

for example....

one bike i have was set up full tilt boogie, at a price.

another bike i did myself. i understand the basics. conclusion: i'm more comfortable and happy on the bike i did myself.

the price of experimenting was limited to buying a longer stem after using one of those freebie online calculators that figured out how much xtra effective reach i'd have (which i felt like i wanted--particularly since i kept wanting to push my hands out beyond the hoods to get comfy), using a combo of longer stem and a mix of certain sized spacers on the steerer tube. very handy.

all that said, if i had complicated foot/alignment problems, that would be a whole different story for which i know nothing about, and yes i'd pay the best i could find to get that fixed and/or addressed properly.

so....this opinion is probably worth what it cost, which is nothing, but that's my $0.02 of value-add to your question...

[edit: here's the calculator i was referring to. pretty handy. no idea if it's 100% mathematically accurate, but it worked more than fine for my purposes. http://alex.phred.org/stemchart/Default.aspx]

[Booger]

I knew you guys were going to say that. I probably would have ridden around forever with my saddle 3mm too low. Ride what feels good is tough to apply when everything about bike fit is interdependent. To rephrase, what does the science say about reach with re: to efficiency and comfort?

[csbmo]

please post pictures, of your girlfriend infront of the bike.

[e-RICHIE]

Me: Being all torso and no legs (6'1", 32" inseam) <cut>

32" is pants inseam or Booger inseam atmo?

[giordana93]

from an all torso, short inseam guy, I'm gonna go first with swoop: i.e. there is no right answer, with the following qualifiers:
if all you do is ride flat out, always on the rivet, more pack than solo, more 20+ mph than below, maybe the full forward will work, assuming you can find a hole in your crotch for the end of your saddle. if not, again, what swoop said. a little laid back and lower. easier to cantilever that torso. push back on the saddle and lean way over with a forward rotated pelvis.
internet caveat. this changes based on terrain, yearly mileage, and saddle. and a whole other bunch of crap that I still havent figure out. yo. that's why sir richard asked your inseam. listen to your body. but sometimes you can make your body listen to you, with a few thousand km.

[ty-ro]

I'm 6'1" with a 36" inseam. I have long legs with a short torso. It tried a few different fitters before I found *the* one. I suggest you ride both and let your body will show you the way.

[quickag]

FYI:

Same measurements as you and I'm comfortable with my Thomson setback with the saddle slammed all the way back and a 9cm thomson stem. That's what works for me, anyway. YMMV.


-dk

[Too Tall]

Did either of these cats go for a pedal with you?
From the details you've give I'd agree custom is in your future.

[SteveP]

you have to ride it.
you need to throw down here.
what works better for you?


that said..15cm of drop is a real lot for anyone.

[riceburner]

I have always felt stretched out, but the internet confirmed too much is never enough.

Do you ride a Colnago? There is definitely a lot of talk out there about fitting those with 140+ stems. Otherwise I do agree about quite a bit of talk being out there, especially with respect to Euro-pro type fits with super long stems....(ahem...see below):

bullcrap

everybody should ride a 150 stem

everybody

now

[Peter Polack]

It's time to get a THIRD opinion; YOUR OWN. Grab a copy of Andy Pruitt's book, Complete Medical Guide For Cyclists, and Dr. Arnie Baker's eBook (from roadbikerider.com), Bike Fit. Borrow a cycling buddy and a trainer, and set yourself up.

LISTEN TO WHAT YOUR BODY TELLS YOU.

54ny77 gets it: "which i felt like i wanted--particularly since i kept wanting to push my hands out beyond the hoods to get comfy". He felt he needed longer reach as indicated by where his hands naturally gravitated. He paid attention, made the changes, and he's happy.

Time to do some experimentation on your own.

[WadePatton]

are your hips in the right place? cleats? those and saddle height are more important than reach atmo. if you pass dk's (or others') dynamic balance test--somewhere in the vs wiki-riding tips, then move on to reach/drop which are highly influenced by rider flexibility, comfort, and goals.

or split the difference of these fitters and move in the direction your body tells you to--only if your hips are right, which they darn well should be considering the processes you've been through.

a ride-with fitter (on tarmac-not the ultradynamic puterized gizmo) is the best.

cheers

[Triskeliongirl]

I am no expert, but my experience with fitters is that they are great for setting up (in this order), your cleat position, saddle height, and saddle fore-aft position (as well as crank length). When different fitters have looked at my position, there is general agreement on these paramaters.

But then you need to start riding with a fit stem, and see how your body feels. Yes, certain positions are more aerodynamic, but if your body can't adapt to them from a comfort standpoint, what have you gained.

By fit, we are talking about developing your contact points on the bike. BUT, there is also the question of being on a bike that is the right size. If your cycling inseam is really 32" and you are 6'1", I agree with the others that it is going to be extraordinarially difficult for you to be fit correctly on a stock frame. So, it sounds like you are being put on a frame that fits your short leg length, but then has too short a top tube, hence you need a long stem. HOWEVER, what you may be ignoring, is that because the frame is not well sized for your long upper body, you are not BALANCED on the bike, and that can also make you feel uncomfortable since it may not be handling well.

I know some of this, cuz I have the opposite problem, I am long-legged but short torsoed, and I know that even when my contact points are set up the same, if the geometry of the bike is wrong, the bike handles wrong and feels wrong. The problem in those cases isn't my position, its that the geometry of the bike doesn't conform to my bodies proportions.

I suggest that you plan to go custom, and start working with a frame builder that has the experience to work with you to first decide where your contact points should be, and then design the bike that allows you to be balanced in that position.

[GrantM]

It's not a great thing that fitting has become perceived as a "science" when it totally
ignores the fundamental aspect of bicycle riding - balance. I've spent a little time on the
computrainer, and i'd never use it for final fit advice. Unless you're balancing on your own,
while pedaling a bicycle under your own power, the "feel" of riding the bike is lost.


-g

[Triskeliongirl]

One more thing. I noticed you are on a 58cm R3. If you do decide to go custom, and want to sell the R3 give me a PM. Your bike is my husband's size, and I've been trying to get him to upgrade for a while now (he is still riding an old trek 5500 w very old 9 spd dura-ace) so we may be interested in taking it off your hands.

[WadePatton]

... If your cycling inseam is really 32" and you are 6'1", I agree with the others that it is going to be extraordinarially difficult for you to be fit correctly on a stock frame. So, it sounds like you are being put on a frame that fits your short leg length, but then has too short a top tube, hence you need a long stem. HOWEVER, what you may be ignoring, is that because the frame is not well sized for your long upper body, you are not BALANCED on the bike, and that can also make you feel uncomfortable since it may not be handling well....

i didn't say it, but it bears repeating.

and in my personal case no stock road frame is made to put my hips right without resorting to a saddle i don't like or a hyper-long offset in the post. again-an inverse situation. 5'10.5 x 34" with femurlongus (but i look "normal" from a distance):biggrin:. although i made my own-it could have been done cheaper* and faster with a full-on custom frame.

*if i paid me $3.25 per hour.:hahaha: