WAY OT: How do you feed your (dog/cat)? Considerations of a vegetarian butcher..

[Octave]

Here's the short rub: I'm a longtime vegetarian/vegan (~18/10 years, respectively) but, now bear with me here, I spent about 10 hours yesterday elbow-deep in a lamb carcass. I've also given that lamb stitches when she got caught on a piece of loose fencing after a storm, hand-fed her a handful of oats every night for the last 12 months, and slept out in the pasture with her to protect her for the night when she was too scared to go into her pen after her first shearing. My name is Andrew and I have CCDD (Chronic Cognitive Dissonance Disorder).

There's a particularly black-and-white quality to vegetarianism when your food comes from Safeway/Carrefour - did you buy the chicken breast or the tofu? The tri-tip or the pumpkin? Things get a bit more gray when your food comes from the field outside your window. How do you fertilize that soil to grow the soybeans that make your tofu? How do you manage pasture in fallow when pumpkins aren't in season?

Yes, I've read Will Bonsall and I know that veganic farming is a theoretical closed-loop system devoid of animal input. I also know what my personal capacity is and know that this is not currently within my reach. I also have a dog - and there's the rub. Dogs are not really omnivores and they are certainly not vegetarians. But the industrial animal economy is brutal and I refuse to participate. Thus a Sunday of butchering. Our dog will eat for close to a year (supplemented by house-grown/raised pumpkins and eggs) off of the work I did yesterday and thanks to the life given for him. We've also successfully avoided paying someone else to do work that I do not trust anyone else to do right - I've seen how animals are raised and treated for the most part, and I'm not going to play that game. In the meantime, we don't buy fertilizer and don't use a mower/trimmer for 5 acres. We also have very warm wool pillows, several pairs of leather gloves, and some mocassins.

So, now the question, for those of you who raise your own meat: what are the major considerations, putting aside taste (our boy is very happy with just about anything we've put in front of him, from wild turkey and quail to goat and sheep), for choosing animals to raise? An obvious huge one for us is Food Conversion Ratio (FCR) - how many calories of food do you feed your future food? Poultry is superior to four-legged beasts in general, but many more chickens/turkeys have to be butchered than sheep/cattle/goat/pig. On the other hand, poultry provides ready-to-use manure that does not need composting (most ruminants pass intact seeds, and therefore using their manure for fertilizer without composting is a sure-fire way to seed your land with whatever they're eating). On the other other hand, sheep provide wool and (eventually) leather, two byproducts not accompanying birds (yes, we've done goose but the amount of useable down/feather is negligible at small scale and with human practices). Ease of raising and ease of butchering are also big factors. Cattle are out of the question for many reasons (picky eaters, poor FCR), but the most significant of which is simply handling them. I can wrangle and/or tackle a 250# sheep when they need a vaccine or hoof trim, but I'm not trying to get stomped by an 800# steer. Actual feed cost is another factor - our current menagerie of animals is only fed at a supplemental level, mostly for training (i.e. a handful of grain brings the sheep to their pen for the night), so the input cost is close to nil. Other considerations? Breeding ease? Alternative byproducts? Nutritional value? I know there are both meat eaters and vegetarian pet owners here, so I'd love to hear some opinions.

[j44ke]

Octave - this is very interesting, especially because I know there are other animal-husbandry-ists on the forum. Where would you like it filed? In OT section or in the Cooks section?

[Octave]

Octave - this is very interesting, especially because I know there are other animal-husbandry-ists on the forum. Where would you like it filed? In OT section or in the Cooks section?

Apologies - I thought I'd placed it in OT (since there is not "WAY OT" sub-forum). I promise I'll post about bikes again at some point but I deeply dig the level of cognitive discourse here and love picking the collective brain.

[theflashunc]

Can't speak to feeding a dog, but we'd raise a cow on the farm growing up. Have him around for a couple years, then send him off to slaughter. Usually get back enough beef once it was in the full size basement freezer to last us for a year or so. He'd just graze in the pastures with the horses, so no additional upkeep from a food standpoint.

He got about as easy and carefree a life as a cow could have, we got several hundred pounds of beef at a time. Seemed about the best deal versus managing a lot of chickens. Or rabbits. Don't do rabbits.

[ZenNMotion]

My perspective on this is largely based on my 30 years of career experience living and working in developing countries (mostly Africa) where an occasional hat that I have (undeservedly) worn is "Food Security Specialist". I suspect you have already waded deep into permaculture as a systems-based approach to your question scaled down to the local/farm level. If not, then you might find the many sources to be a good (gold mine) of ideas and knowledge. Most immediately, fish ponds, rabbits and guinea pigs come to mind as sustainable protein sources. I've seen where they are literally life savers and life sustainers in parts of the world where malnutrition is a dark reality- especially with children and expectant mothers. I also think they might be a first-world solution to the conundrum of feeding pets when you are engaged in mindful farming.

I call myself a locational vegan- I avoid meat where and when I have a choice, but there are times and places where I find myself where that's not an easy option either because of social concerns (when a poor family kills a precious chicken to honor you, their guest, you eat the damn chicken- feet and all) or because there simply are few or no plant-based options (you can only eat so much cassava and dried okra with extended field work). So I often find myself conflicted, and have come around to the position that I do my best to minimize eating animals/products but it's OK to not be a purist, keeping in mind the bigger picture of the reasons behind my choices and doing my realist best. I also have cats and have had dogs in the past, this is also part of the disconnect. I have not done the research, but I believe that a lot of pet food is, for better or worse, made from animal by-products that otherwise would not be used, at least in first-world markets (OK, maybe for prisons and school lunches in certain states ) I may be wrong with the assumption that pet food by itself is not a major driver of the meat industry.

In any case, I think fish ponds are brilliant if you have the water resources, right conditions and terrain (not to mention earth digging equipment- in Africa they're dug by hand in a massive community effort). Chickens are often housed over the pond water, causing algal growth which feeds Tilapia. The ponds are periodically drained and fish captured. Pond mud is great fertilizer. Refill, re-stock and start a new cycle. On a smaller scale, rabbits and guinea pigs are both sustainable, and manageable with minimal investment with cages/yards etc.

I'd love to see pics of the farm some time, good luck!

[Octave]

@ZenNMotion - this is exactly what I'd hoped to see following my post. A few thoughts from my end (as an amateur of all things, but major dork of many).

I suspect you have already waded deep into permaculture as a systems-based approach to your question scaled down to the local/farm level. If not, then you might find the many sources to be a good (gold mine) of ideas and knowledge. Most immediately, fish ponds, rabbits and guinea pigs come to mind as sustainable protein sources. I've seen where they are literally life savers and life sustainers in parts of the world where malnutrition is a dark reality- especially with children and expectant mothers. I also think they might be a first-world solution to the conundrum of feeding pets when you are engaged in mindful farming.

Indeed I have dug deep into the permaculture world and you are spot on here. We do have a fish pond, and I do hunt rabbits when opportunity arises (again, cognitive dissonance as a vegetarian). I am well aware that my conundrum here is of the first world problem; we adopted our dog at the age of 8 when he had been abandoned and, fortunately, found by some kind souls. He lives with us here and has a good life now. I have had many friends over the years who eschew meat but continue to feed their dogs/cats without thinking about the source, which is something I find problematic. Hence, my feelings about meat have gone from black/white to very messy gray.

I call myself a locational vegan- I avoid meat where and when I have a choice, but there are times and places where I find myself where that's not an easy option either because of social concerns (when a poor family kills a precious chicken to honor you, their guest, you eat the damn chicken- feet and all) or because there simply are few or no plant-based options (you can only eat so much cassava and dried okra with extended field work). So I often find myself conflicted, and have come around to the position that I do my best to minimize eating animals/products but it's OK to not be a purist, keeping in mind the bigger picture of the reasons behind my choices and doing my realist best. I also have cats and have had dogs in the past, this is also part of the disconnect.

Over my many years as a vegetarian/vegan I too have made similar choices. Bikepacking through the Alpes I spent nights camping on the back pastures of farm owners who offered me horse terrine - did I say no? Of course not. My wife (also a veggie-whatever) and I also ate the heart of the lamb we slaughtered yesterday as a matter of respect and honor for her life. I only use the terms vegetarian/vegan here for clarity - I live a plant-based life, when possible, and when aligning with my values. Do I recognize that the carbon footprint of a vegetable can, in theory, outweigh that of an animal product? Yes. But apples-to-apples, given that I am growing my own food, I know that an acre of fava beans is a more efficient and environmentally-friendly source of protein than a cow on the same acreage.

I have not done the research, but I believe that a lot of pet food is, for better or worse, made from animal by-products that otherwise would not be used, at least in first-world markets (OK, maybe for prisons and school lunches in certain states ) I may be wrong with the assumption that pet food by itself is not a major driver of the meat industry.

I also have strong feelings about the ethical treatment of other living beings, which is why I cannot ascribe to the "scraps" argument. I of course believe that 100% of an animal should be used (we do not discard anything from our butchering - ask the hide being tanned with brains and the bones on the smoker), but my financial support of any aspect of the industrial animal economy is unacceptable from. This is also highly dependent on the pet food source. Regardless, you are correct that it is not a major driver of the meat industry, but neither is whey protein a major driver of the dairy industry (yet, lactose-intolerance aside, I still will not buy it).

In any case, I think fish ponds are brilliant if you have the water resources, right conditions and terrain (not to mention earth digging equipment- in Africa they're dug by hand in a massive community effort). Chickens are often housed over the pond water, causing algal growth which feeds Tilapia. The ponds are periodically drained and fish captured. Pond mud is great fertilizer. Refill, re-stock and start a new cycle. On a smaller scale, rabbits and guinea pigs are both sustainable, and manageable with minimal investment with cages/yards etc.

We dug (not hand, but shovel) a pond filled by our seasonal stream. It attracts native waterfowl and houses many hopping toads. It also exchanges water via a solar pump with the few plants we greenhouse (some citrus trees and other things that don't like the winters here, plus sprouts in the early early spring pre-transplant). We live on the edge of the forest and have a few too many things that go chomp in the night to be raising anything without fences/cages, unfortunately. We're trying turkeys this year, I can hear the chicks chirping from my window right now, but even they need fencing or they'll be snatched in the dark.

I'd love to see pics of the farm some time, good luck!

We've got a Flickr for the farm (Chez Dimanche, as we lovingly call it) that you've motivated me to update. Link coming sometime...

[j44ke]

Apologies - I thought I'd placed it in OT (since there is not "WAY OT" sub-forum). I promise I'll post about bikes again at some point but I deeply dig the level of cognitive discourse here and love picking the collective brain.

No worries. I've moved it to OT.

Keep it going campers.

BTW, my impression talking to a friend who works for USAID it that pigs and goats, with goats maybe being slightly better(?), are the big winners for best return on resource investment required as far as livestock is concerned, but beans are even better.

[ZenNMotion]

No worries. I've moved it to OT.

Keep it going campers.

BTW, my impression talking to a friend who works for USAID it that pigs and goats, with goats maybe being slightly better(?), are the big winners for best return on resource investment required as far as livestock is concerned, but beans are even better.

Goats graze right down to the roots, sheep are better in that respect. Killing pigs breaks my heart more than any other livestock animal. Just too damn smart and aware. Can't eat pig no way no how!

[SlowPokePete]

Octave...I checked out your Flickr and your place is amazing!

SPP

[rwsaunders]

I have a friend and retired business partner who lives in Duvall, WA and he and his wife raise miniature English cattle...all grass fed on their farm. He pre-sells to the public every year and then harvests the animals through a traveling butcher. If you like, I can place you in touch, as it might be worth the time to buy meat from someone like him, as opposed to dealing with raising livestock just for your dog. They are super fussy about their animals and they treat them with respect as you have mentioned.

[Octave]

Goats graze right down to the roots, sheep are better in that respect.

Indeed - goats are also a major PITA. We had a goat year 1 and, aside from being a bit of a brat, he was very destructive. We lost a lot of trees and fence sections thanks to him. Goats will push through a fence to get that extra-green grass while they stand knee-deep in seeding oats. Our sheep leave a couple of inches of grass in the pasture we've oversown with the good stuff and it doesn't fully die back. Plus they leave the blackberries alone.

Octave...I checked out your Flickr and your place is amazing!

SPP

Thanks Pete! We do our darndest.

I have a friend and retired business partner who lives in Duvall, WA and he and his wife raise miniature English cattle...all grass fed on their farm. He pre-sells to the public every year and then harvests the animals through a traveling butcher. If you like, I can place you in touch, as it might be worth the time to buy meat from someone like him, as opposed to dealing with raising livestock just for your dog. They are super fussy about their animals and they treat them with respect as you have mentioned.

Appreciated (truly), but it's a much a philosophical question for me as anything. And I'm guessing they don't want to give me 10 yards of composted manure and a new pair of gloves. Aside from supporting the life of our canine companion, I also recognize that our crops need fertilizer, our soil needs aerating, our weeds need taming, and our lives are bettered by the presence of these lives. I am infinitely grateful for the animals that we live with who provide so much for us. We currently have 10 chickens (plus 2 Serama "mini" chickens), 10 turkeys, and 5 sheep. We move the poultry around the property to give them fresh places to forage and in return they peck at the soil, kick up some dirt, and rid us of weeds in advance of planting. I spend most afternoons listening to the radio and watching the sheep play. It is a happy life and I would not trade it - my goal and question here are to understand where others' priorities lie in raising livestock. Perhaps ignore the dog part and pretend I'm an equal opportunity meat-eater with no care for taste (really, he loves it all) who wants to optimize his situation.

Additionally, my true feeling is that I do not feel morally sound outsourcing death. I appreciate knowing where the things I consume (whether me or another) come from as intimately as possible. There are obvious limitations on this, I am a realistic person, but if something is within my capacity to do, I will do it myself. The order of things I am most willing to do is dictated by the things I trust others to do the least - caring for animals is right up near the top of that list, even amongst those who use words like "humane."

On the plus side of all of this kind of eager-beaver work is that last night, with the lamb's heart, we made ful medames with fava beans, garlic, onion, tomatoes, parsley, and lemon juice all grown by our hands. A side salad of lettuce, purslane, carrot, radish, and celery was also 100% in house. And dessert was a cooled oat porridge sweetened with stevia leaf and topped with a bit of cherry preserves. Guess where the oats, stevia, and cherry were grown? Now if we could just get our oilseed crops going we'd be in the clear...

[Mabouya]

Here's the short rub: I'm a longtime vegetarian/vegan (~18/10 years, respectively) but, now bear with me here, I spent about 10 hours yesterday elbow-deep in a lamb carcass. I've also given that lamb stitches when she got caught on a piece of loose fencing after a storm, hand-fed her a handful of oats every night for the last 12 months, and slept out in the pasture with her to protect her for the night when she was too scared to go into her pen after her first shearing. My name is Andrew and I have CCDD (Chronic Cognitive Dissonance Disorder).

I too am a vegetarian / mostly vegan, and have been so for a long time. I think one major difference between us is that there is no way in the world, no matter what I though about the "animal industrial economy," that I would be able to bring myself to butcher a lamb that I had raised and taken care of as you did, to provide food for my dog in lieu of commercially available dog food. I have two cats that must be fed, and prefer to have someone else do the deed for me, killing anonymous cows and chickens far away, but I do acknowledge the nastiness of the business. I try mostly get the cats beef-related food on the somewhat crazy notion that that reduces the total amount of killing, since one cow can feed a lot more cats than one chicken, but that is a bit of a wacky notion, and certainly doesn't help the cow.

When I was a kid my father had a chicken farm, so I certainly saw lots of killing and processing there, and the butchering of other animals like goats and pigs. It bothered me then a bit, but not enough to do anything about it, until as an adult I finally decided to go the next step and stop eating meat, and generally avoiding all animal-based products.

Whenever you have two (or more) important principles that are in conflict it can be tough to decide how to resolve the situation, but in this case there's no doubt that I would have chosen to allow "Dolly" to live out her life and purchased the dog food. To me it's like the difference between the death of a close relative and an anonymous stranger you've never met a thousand miles away. One hurts, the other, well, it's unfortunate, but stuff happens.

[Octave]

@Mabouya - it sounds like you've given this thought, which is more than many veggies/pet stewards can say, so kudos for that. I felt the same way (outsourcing the "deed") until I found myself knee-deep in the gray area that is the world of homesteading and agricultural work. As I said in the OP, vegetarianism seems (seemed) very black & white when all of my food came from a grocery store - buy the courgette, not the flank steak. Buy the oat milk, not the dairy. That worked very well for me for many years. Then I bought my first dump truck load of manure from a local farmer to fertilize our acreage in our first spring here on the farm - in that moment I realized that my choice to eat soybeans instead of kidneys still came with an animal cost. This was a major turning point for me, in which I decided to embrace the gray are and realize that, whether my hands got dirty or I opened my wallet, I was a participant in the animal economy to some degree. I do my best to minimize that and to enrich the lives of the animals I care for. I hope that they have an unbroken string of good days until they have a single bad one.

Your final comment on principle conflict brings my attention to the other aspect of holistic animal and environmental ethics - how is the soil tilled and the land managed in fallow? Here, we have several acres that have never seen the blade of a mower or a rototiller, sparing the world another few pounds of CO2 and leaving the dead dinosaurs that make petrol where they belong, in the ground. In the end, my reasons for going vegetarian/vegan in the first place revolve around respect for animals and respect for the health of the planet. When you step back and look at that from the broadest lens possible, this includes reducing fossil fuel use and total abuse of land, even if sometimes that means opting to raise some chickens for fertilizer rather than buying synthetic nitrogen.

Regarding the footprint of pet food - see here: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0181301 . Figure 6 breaks down the contribution of pet food to the overall footprint of meat production, and for land/water/CO2..etc. it all falls around 25-30% of what humans consume. This is not an insignificant consideration. Purely concerning CO2 - per 1000 kcal of finished product, beef/cattle herd produces 36.44 kg of CO2, as compared to 12.53 kg for lamb/mutton, and 3.24 kg for eggs (which make up the remaining protein and fat in our dog's diet).

[ides1056]

I bought a farm with about thirty acres of open land and raised cattle for about a dozen years: Highland crossed with Devon. Ultimately I could not continue to kill them, or take the calves away from their mothers, without feeling like a total POS. So I gave them to another local farmer. Also raised chickens, geese and turkeys.

Now I feed my dogs dry food, some fancy brand my wife has delivered. To inspire them to eat, which isn't a huge chore because they get all day exercise, I heat a bit of water, add a dollop of Irish butter, and grate some Cotijo cheese on top of the dry and pour the water over and mix.

They don't seem to miss the ground beef at all.

There's some old photos, in no particular order, on flickr.com/gowild/

[rec head]

Octave, you take things I think about and do them. Keep it up and keep posting.

[fastupslowdown]

n.m.

[Octave]

Octave, you take things I think about and do them. Keep it up and keep posting.

Thanks! Making this thread reminded me how deeply neglected our Flickr has become (nothing since Christmas 2020) - working on a major photo dump from the last 6 months now...

Chez Dimanche