NE Skiing: Intel needed

[zachateseverything]

I had three different houses within walking distance of the White Castle at Lake and 36th. When Surly first made the Pugsley (2007 or 2008?) I was helping a roommate put one together in the garage until late into the night, when suddenly we had the great idea for a White Castle run. We hadn't sorted the brakes on the Puglsey at that point, and I vaguely remember riding it up 36th brakeless and just hoping to hit the light at Lake to avoid getting smoked.

Sadly, that White Castle is no more. It was remodeled into a Tim Horton's, and now there's a For Lease sign out front.

white castle is an interesting fast food business. all the stores are company owned, the same family has been in charge from the beginning, and they aren't very willing to take on debt for the sake of expansion. they're also willing to cut bait on individual stores or even entire markets if they don't see profits in the near future. a little over 5 years ago they completely pulled out of NE Ohio after only being in the area for a decade.

[SlowPokePete]

Digging this one up.

So...I haven't skied in 20 plus years, but now I am a short 15 minute drive from Catamount, time on my hands on weekdays, and some money saved from my part time job.

And a desire to get into a winter sport.

I went to Catamount last Thursday, rented equipment, and bought a four hour pass.

Skiing, it turns out, is much like riding a bike.

By the end of the first run, I pretty much felt like I was the intermediate level skier I once was.

So...thirteen runs in four hours, had lots of fun!

Headed over to Steiner's Sports in Valatie for their sale, and lo and behold ended up with a high level boot fitting by Sherrie Bradway as well as careful consideration of what kind of skier I think I am now and where I think this will go. Their advice was invaluable and yes I bought some pretty decent equipment that I will be picking up Thursday morning.

February 20, 2024 by SPP™ SlowPokePete, on Flickr

SPP

[caleb]

Digging this one up.

So...I haven't skied in 20 plus years, but now I am a short 15 minute drive from Catamount, time on my hands on weekdays, and some money saved from my part time job.

And a desire to get into a winter sport.

I went to Catamount last Thursday, rented equipment, and bought a four hour pass.

Skiing, it turns out, is much like riding a bike.

By the end of the first run, I pretty much felt like I was the intermediate level skier I once was.

So...thirteen runs in four hours, had lots of fun!

Headed over to Steiner's Sports in Valatie for their sale, and lo and behold ended up with a high level boot fitting by Sherrie Bradway as well as careful consideration of what kind of skier I think I am now and where I think this will go. Their advice was invaluable and yes I bought some pretty decent equipment that I will be picking up Thursday morning.

Glad to see you're getting out to enjoy the snow.

Had I stayed in the Catskills, I told myself that I would have gotten an alpine touring or tele setup for sure.

[j44ke]

Glad to see you're getting out to enjoy the snow.

Had I stayed in the Catskills, I told myself that I would have gotten an alpine touring or tele setup for sure.

Windham just got bought out and is converting to luxury which has locals angry. And Hunter has been discouraging-to-prohibiting local touring skiers on slopes where hike up and ski down for less $ was a tradition.

But there may be the inevitable economic correction at some point for management at both resorts. I am sure you already know how the area tends to go up and down.

[vertical_doug]

Windham just got bought out and is converting to luxury which has locals angry. And Hunter has been discouraging-to-prohibiting local touring skiers on slopes where hike up and ski down for less $ was a tradition.

But there may be the inevitable economic correction at some point for management at both resorts. I am sure you already know how the area tends to go up and down.

I don't think so. Hunter was bought out by Vail in 2019 from the Sackler family's Peak Resorts. (Purdue Pharma of Oxy fame.) So no tears shed here. Hunter is no longer about day pass walk-ups and really about the EPIC Pass. If I was a NYer still, skiing two weekends a year at Hunter then the longer ski trip to Niseko or outwest or even Sugarbush is basically the plan.

Wyndham is now Ikon. So same basic set-up. Two weekends at Wyndham if nice, then off to Aspen, Mammoth or someplace else that is the big trip. Given the popularity of skiing post pandemic, trying to manage the total number of visits on peak days seems commenable in my opinion.

I also think with climate change and the cost of maintaining runs and snow making equipment, charging people more for skinning up makes sense to me. The snow costs money. A lot of money as a matter of fact.

I feel everyday like our skiing days are numbered. I am not sure Hakuba, Japan will have viable skiing in another 20 years at current rate. If I wanted to retire on a ski hill in the US, I think I'd look at Purg although I don't think my wife can handle the remoteness.

[j44ke]

So do you think skiing is a business that can be fully "luxotified" in this area? I was giving the whole thing 3-5 years before ownership change, downgrade, etc. That's what I meant by economic correction. However, my suspicion is these investments are really about real estate, not skiing. Build/sell upscale houses, then leave the snow problem for the owners of the houses to solve. So maybe luxury is just a place holder.

According to my friend who lives over there, the ski touring was done on slopes (or a slope) that isn't regularly maintained and is sort of off to one side of the area. But I haven't been there so I don't really know what that means. I think most of the complaints are coming from current residents who are used to amenable terms for skiing accorded to locals.

[72gmc]

However, my suspicion is these investments are really about real estate, not skiing. Build/sell upscale houses, then leave the snow problem for the owners of the houses to solve.

That’s my suspicion with a lot of current resort developments. Not unlike those luxury home owners in the Scottsdale area who thought they were safe buying city water, until the city stopped selling it.

[rmplum]

I don't know how you ski anymore without forking over for one of the passes. We are having a $hit winter here in Michigan, especially here in SE Mich. Our local "hill" was purchased by Vail a handful plus years ago. Nice lodge and facilities etc, but daily passes are $100+ now. WTF!?! For this tiny little pedant hill on all fake snow this year I may be out. It only takes 5 days out to pay for the season pass but I don't want to ski 5 days on this crap.

[robin3mj]

The key to the RE game is that as long as you can make your returns and timeline pencil, there will always be another buyer at exit time.

That merry go round is going to stop in many places in the next decades- RTO stagnation in CBD’s, water availability in the SW, lack of snow in NE, insurers electing to stop insuring 30 year mortgages in coastal FL. Etc etc.

It’s gonna be interesting.

[SlowPokePete]

Looks like Catamount is around $45 for a day pass next week on weekdays.

And Butternut is only $25 for day pass on Fridays starting next week March 1st as well.

SPP

[72gmc]

A coworker just returned from $200+/day resort slopes in Colorado.

I'm more interested in mom and pop areas at prodigious altitudes in Utah and Wyoming for $45-$65 a day.

[vertical_doug]

So do you think skiing is a business that can be fully "luxotified" in this area? I was giving the whole thing 3-5 years before ownership change, downgrade, etc. That's what I meant by economic correction. However, my suspicion is these investments are really about real estate, not skiing. Build/sell upscale houses, then leave the snow problem for the owners of the houses to solve. So maybe luxury is just a place holder.

According to my friend who lives over there, the ski touring was done on slopes (or a slope) that isn't regularly maintained and is sort of off to one side of the area. But I haven't been there so I don't really know what that means. I think most of the complaints are coming from current residents who are used to amenable terms for skiing accorded to locals.

I suspect they are discussing Hunter West and getting Annapurna. The run is rarely open, if it is open, and you are at hunter, it is the one run you want to hit for the little fresh snow you get. If it was a powder day, and the telemarkers have already sluffed off the run by hiking up early. I'd be bummed.

I think there is so much money in greater NYC area, that for some people buying a convenience home in Hunter or Wyndam because your kid wants to be on the high school ski team is perfectly reasonable.

I'd a bit of dick here but honestly if you want to hike up and ski down, go to Mt. Greylock and do Thunderbolt with Lumpy. I always view lift served terrain as lifted served terrain. Uphill guys need to go somewhere else. But if the resort is willing to let them go uphill if they buy a reduced pass, they should not complain and buy the pass. You gotta chip in.

Else you get the Ghost resorts like we have in Japan.



This is an awesome clip btw

[j44ke]

...

I'd a bit of dick here but honestly if you want to hike up and ski down, go to Mt. Greylock and do Thunderbolt with Lumpy. I always view lift served terrain as lifted served terrain. Uphill guys need to go somewhere else. But if the resort is willing to let them go uphill if they buy a reduced pass, they should not complain and buy the pass. You gotta chip in.

...

Greylock is 2 hours away from Woodstock, 4 hour round trip. The issue isn't paying. They were paying. Just that new management has changed the rules. In my buddy's case, he's skiing on 20 year old skis and at least that old boots and skiing early mornings before the drunks wake up. So really if everything goes deluxe, then it just means he won't ski.

In the end, it probably doesn't matter, because as you say climate shift will kill it for everyone.

[72gmc]

That Black Crows series on the ghost resorts is good, I recently rewatched all of them. Locally-owned hills with family members at the ticket window ...

[j44ke]

I...



This is an awesome clip btw

That is awesome. I wondered about all the derelict equipment we saw in Hokkaido. There was a climb we did on a road that went up along the edge of one of the old resorts. Nukabira Gensenkyo Ski Area. Great climb up through the trees. Some of the buildings were getting worked on, unlike other places, and we were told at the inn where we stayed that they were fixing the ski area for Australians. We cracked ourselves up hypothesizing that the vending machines would start carrying Vegemite. That would be the marker of success. But amazing beautiful area. With bears.

[lumpy]

I'd a bit of dick here but honestly if you want to hike up and ski down, go to Mt. Greylock and do Thunderbolt with Lumpy.

Boy, I wish. We're having another poor winter. The Thunderbolt's been skied a few times this year but it's been serious low tide. Last winter was lousy too. We are hoping for a Miracle March like we had a few years ago. Most of my usual crew is skinning at Jiminy, which apparently has a flexible uphill policy.

I'm riding the lifts this winter myself because I'm going to Big Sky for a week next month. My son is on the Ski Patrol there. I need to put in the downhill laps because that mountain requires my A game.

Talk about outrageous ticket prices, though: if you walk up to the window, a day pass at Big Sky is something like $249.00, and that doesn't include the tram that goes to the top of the mountain where the spectacular skiing is. The tram is demand-priced, $10-40 per ride.

[ides1056]

I have boycotted this winter. Why drive three hours to ski when it's the driving that's making the snow disappear?

[caleb]

Here's the link to the NYT story on Windham becoming mostly a membership resort: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/n...catskills.html @j44ke , I agree that $200k memberships probably aren't sustainable in that area for long when you can jump on a direct flight to Salt Lake or Denver from any NYC airport. Both Windham and Hunter will never be more than local hills.

I'm not sure about the current controversy at Hunter, but in the past people would lift to the top and ski the backside down to a waiting car below. I think the resort did some work on the brush to make it skiable, even if it was technically out of bounds.

I have to imagine there are still some good backcountry spots on state land in the higher areas of the Catskills when the snow is good. I knew some guys who would just ski up and down the local powerline cuts and had a ton of fun.

[vertical_doug]

I have boycotted this winter. Why drive three hours to ski when it's the driving that's making the snow disappear?

Just to clarify how screwed we are, US transportation accounts for about 4%. It is a big number but coal globally is 42% and growing the fastest. It makes no sense that Germany shuts its nuclear reactors and burns more coal. Not driving your car is like throwing the deck chair of the titanic while the captain still plans to go full speed ahead into the iceberg. We have to do something about incompetent captains.

We have a large year round ice field in the valley below Shirouma in Hakuba. I expect it to be gone in my lifetime

[SlowPokePete]

Skied Catamount from 3-8pm yesterday, ticket was $32.

Got in 14 runs on all new equipment.

Never waited on line.

February 22, 2024 by SPP™ SlowPokePete, on Flickr

February 22, 2024 by SPP™ SlowPokePete, on Flickr

February 22, 2024 by SPP™ SlowPokePete, on Flickr

February 22, 2024 by SPP™ SlowPokePete, on Flickr

SPP