Automobiles

[72gmc]

Toyota also has huge resources relative to a lot of car makers along with years of development in hybrid tech, including LeMans prototype race cars. I read last week that Mazda is going to introduce a CX-50 hybrid with Toyota power. This causes me to think that they’re charging for more product as Jorn says, but also from a powerful market position.

[sk_tle]

Why do hybrids need to be plug-in hybrids? That just feels like collusion between automakers and energy companies. Can't hybrids make their own power? They are basically generators on wheels.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/clima...lug-in-hybrid/

The idea is to use less carbon based energy but still have that as a backup. I do think plugin hybrids makes a lot of sense when you know the average commute trip distance is 15km / 9.3miles but people still want to be able to do longer ones occasionally.

Let's keep in mind that the charging network is not in the same state globally as it is in the USA. In many countries you want to be able to charge at home for the majority of your trip but you don't want to have to wait n minutes for your car to charge or have to change route to have a charging station available (+the annoyance of dealing with n different apps to connect to different chargers).

[Saab2000]

Plug-in hybrids make a ton of sense. For short trips they are effectively an electric car and guess what? Most trips are short. My friend has a Volvo XC-60 Recharge. She plugs into regular power at home and it’s enough to keep her battery topped up and she doesn’t use any gasoline for weeks or even months at a time.

I’ve mentioned here before that in the summer of 2021 I used an Opel Grandland plug-in hybrid (Peugeot) and was pretty impressed by it. It would do 60km on electricity and the transition to being a regular hybrid was completely seamless.

Plug-in hybrids make a lot of sense for a lot of people.

My brothers each have a Toyota regular hybrid and their economy is very good.

Also of note, the engine in a hybrid isn’t primarily to be a generator. It provides propulsion and is assisted by a motor and a battery.

[72gmc]

A plug-in hybrid is what makes the most sense to my wife and I. At this point we’re waiting for more vehicles that interest us to become plug-in hybrids.

[j44ke]

No I am not asking about whether it is a good idea or not. And emissions are part of my point. Why isn't the recharge built into the car? Why do you have to go plug into ConEd? The production of electrical energy in this country is mostly from burning coal and natural gas. Plugging in your hybrid just means you are burning gasoline, coal and natural gas. Why reach outside the car when you should have the means for recharging the batteries through modification/integration of available systems?

Am I right or is there something about the plug-in aspect that I am not understanding? My guess is that it allows the car to meet emission standards that would be otherwise impossible - which is fine - but it feels to me as a failure of imagination in engineering. And probably a product of everyone trying to build a fully electric car and forgetting about the utility of hybrids, failing on the electric car but then trying to make their money back on the R&D by sticking battery motors in a hybrid and calling it a plug-in hybrid. Bonus that it fits them under the federal reg bar on emissions.

I'm not talking conspiracies, just business.

I want my perpetual motion machine.

[Saab2000]

There have been studies done that support the idea that grid scale electrical generation and charging EVs results in about half the carbon emissions of each automobile running an engine. If a PH car barely uses its engine because someone’s daily driving doesn’t need it it’s generally considered cleaner to draw from the grid than to generate your own power with the onboard engine.

[TonyP]

I'm thinking that if the electric motor that drives the car could be used to charge the battery effectively the RailRoads would have incorporated that into their system long ago, rather than a diesel running the generator used to power the electric motors on each axle.

[j44ke]

There have been studies done that support the idea that grid scale electrical generation and charging EVs results in about half the carbon emissions of each automobile running an engine. If a PH car barely uses its engine because someone’s daily driving doesn’t need it it’s generally considered cleaner to draw from the grid than to generate your own power with the onboard engine.

That makes some sense - I mean I am sure it is true on average, but again, it puts control over the cleanliness of the electricity outside the car. So regionally you could have very dirty electricity, and potentially the regulatory satisfaction at the design of the plug-in hybrids in that area would not be accurate. Maybe that's to be expected and could be added into the "green" calculations, but if the manufacturers and/or car buyers are getting tax credits, then you have government incentives for compliance in name only.

Two of the studies I've read about plug-in hybrids said that most are not charged frequently enough to produce lowered emissions or benefit from higher effective fuel mileage. In fact, plug-in hybrids are frequently heavier than gas-powered cars and gas/electric hybrid vehicles, so they get even lower fuel mileage and may produce higher emissions without consistent plug-in mileage use. One of the studies - Euro-centric - said that in order to receive government incentives, the plug-in range should be increased so that charging could better match the real-world use patterns of charging the car once every 3-4 days. I think the distance was 80-100km.

So I am betting that the reason hybrid cars don't charge themselves is that there are no incentives to design them that way. If the government regulations specified self-charging hybrids with commuter distance electric ranges and offered incentives for making them, they'd happen. Right now the language seems focused on emissions levels solely as a product of calculations, rather than real world use and human behavior.

If you can jump start one car with another car, then you can create a system that charges itself and thereby increases efficiency and green-ness by accommodating people's behavior.

I'm thinking that if the electric motor that drives the car could be used to charge the battery effectively the RailRoads would have incorporated that into their system long ago, rather than a diesel running the generator used to power the electric motors on each axle.

Innovation on trains is not going to happen in the United States until China takes over in 2150.

[Saab2000]

If owners of plug-in hybrids aren’t charging every day it’s either because they are lazy and don’t want to take the handful of seconds it takes to plug in each time you park, or they bought the wrong car and can’t plug them in conveniently. This applies to apartment dwellers or city dwellers without a charging solution. It’s not the fault of the technology that owners/drivers either can’t or won’t charge daily. Get what is right for you but do your research and be honest with yourself. We’ve never had more or better choices than we have right now. I’m absolutely convinced of that. That’s why an EV is probably not right for someone living in a Chicago neighborhood with no garage or home charging option and relies on street parking. The fiasco a few months ago of Teslas stranded all over the city showed this. Be able to charge at home or don’t go electric or PHV in 2024.

I live in suburban Chicago (suburban not because I want to live in the ‘burbs, but because the city of Chicago is even worse for most cycling) and could easily plug in a PHV car in my garage. Yes, I have a garage. This is part of the deal with an EV or PHV (plug-in hybrid vehicle for lack of a better acronym). When I bought my Model Y I knew that I could and would have a wall connector installed. My car is always plugged in at home even though I only charge to 50-60% of capacity 99% of the time. If my battery runs out, it’s not the fault of the technology. It’s my fault for not plugging it in. Same with a PHV. If drivers aren’t taking advantage of that technology and not plugging in whenever they are parked, or at least overnight, that’s not the fault of the tech, it’s the fault of the owner. Again, they are either not doing it right or they bought the wrong car for their situation. The technology assumes a regular charge - like daily. It’s not different than a gas car. Gotta fill up the tank.

If you’re going to get a car that requires regular charging, it’s really best to be able to do this at home or at work every night and/or day.

[j44ke]

If owners of plug-in hybrids aren’t charging every day it’s either because they are lazy and don’t want to take the handful of seconds it takes to plug in each time you park, or they bought the wrong car and can’t plug them in conveniently. This applies to apartment dwellers or city dwellers without a charging solution. It’s not the fault of the technology that owners/drivers either can’t or won’t charge daily. Get what is right for you but do your research and be honest with yourself. We’ve never had more or better choices than we have right now. I’m absolutely convinced of that. That’s why an EV is probably not right for someone living in a Chicago neighborhood with no garage or home charging option and relies on street parking. The fiasco a few months ago of Teslas stranded all over the city showed this. Be able to charge at home or don’t go electric or PHV in 2024.

I live in suburban Chicago (suburban not because I want to live in the ‘burbs, but because the city of Chicago is even worse for most cycling) and could easily plug in a PHV car in my garage. Yes, I have a garage. This is part of the deal with an EV or PHV (plug-in hybrid vehicle for lack of a better acronym). When I bought my Model Y I knew that I could and would have a wall connector installed. My car is always plugged in at home even though I only charge to 50-60% of capacity 99% of the time. If my battery runs out, it’s not the fault of the technology. It’s my fault for not plugging it in. Same with a PHV. If drivers aren’t taking advantage of that technology and not plugging in whenever they are parked, or at least overnight, that’s not the fault of the tech, it’s the fault of the owner. Again, they are either not doing it right or they bought the wrong car for their situation. The technology assumes a regular charge - like daily. It’s not different than a gas car. Gotta fill up the tank.

If you’re going to get a car that requires regular charging, it’s really best to be able to do this at home or at work every night and/or day.

True enough.

I am going to have to read more about self-charging systems.

[sk_tle]

No I am not asking about whether it is a good idea or not. And emissions are part of my point. Why isn't the recharge built into the car? Why do you have to go plug into ConEd? The production of electrical energy in this country is mostly from burning coal and natural gas.

Because they make it for global market. It would be more work to design different cars for different countries and if you look carefully, most plugin hybrids manufacturer comes from countries where nuclear is the major source of electricity.

Also regular non plug-in hybrids do still exist.

There is also a take of practicability. Not having to stop at a gas station on a regular basis is a plus.

[sk_tle]

Also, can't speak about the USA but in europe: regulations.

A plugin hybrid that is used most of its time in full electric mode will individually be rated based on a standard defined route and will rate better in carbon emission than one producing it because the source of the electricty is not taken care of. It will also be able to enter some low emissions city centers. For example in Madrid and other capitals in europe you can't enter the city center with a gaz guzzling cars (2 wheeled and delivery have exemptions). My parents have a diesel Toyota Verso that still works very well after nearly 2 decades but bought a smaller corolla hybrid just to be able to enter Paris a few years ago. The new one is their primary vehicle because it is just nicer to drive but will likely keep the diesel for as long as it is working (they use it to tow a caravan). They will probably upgrade the hybrid to a plug-in version soon.

Still for me a plug-in hybrid or EV would be kind of useless unless I relocate. I don't have private parking and their are just 5 individual parking spaces equipped with a 22KW charger in the neighborhood and only 2 more in a 5 km radius, in places that would be very inconvenient for me to walk in and back as they are in a hilly neighborhood. And I am pretty sure these make for expensive charging compared to home charge. I don't know how it is faring in comparison to gas.

And we have lots of neighborhoods with shared public parking space in our area where efforts to equip with charger is still slow.

[j44ke]

Okay, I've done some reading. And talked to my race car driver/builder friend. So in theory, as long as you have an energy producing system, you could charge a battery. You can't make energy out of thin air. You need a source of production. A generator. But the size of the battery required to have 40-80mile cruising range could not be fully charged in the relatively limited time the car was driving around. Plus there seems to be some discussion around charging while in use and whether that's just not possible with current tech or that it isn't possible at all. And it seems like discharge rate is higher than the recharge rate. You can charge your iPhone while texting and talking, but if I understand correctly, the iPhone example doesn't work with car batteries because an iPhone battery is over-sized for its power requirements while a car battery is relatively undersized(?) for the power volume requirement of the vehicle (as compared to gasoline.) I guess if you make a battery with enough capacity to drive 450miles, you still have to carry the battery with you which in turn reduces the effective range (gasoline actually gets lighter as you empty the tank.) So smaller batteries, more frequent recharging.

Anyway, you can do some recharge but not enough, the trips are too short to provide enough recharge time anyway, plus electric car battery capacity is still limited by size/weight and current tech can't solve that. Or thereabouts.

But electric/electric hybrid race cars are getting better and better.

[Saab2000]

Okay, I've done some reading. And talked to my race car driver/builder friend. So in theory, as long as you have an energy producing system, you could charge a battery. You can't make energy out of thin air. You need a source of production. A generator. But the size of the battery required to have 40-80mile cruising range could not be fully charged in the relatively limited time the car was driving around. Plus there seems to be some discussion around charging while in use and whether that's just not possible with current tech or that it isn't possible at all. And it seems like discharge rate is higher than the recharge rate. You can charge your iPhone while texting and talking, but if I understand correctly, the iPhone example doesn't work with car batteries because an iPhone battery is over-sized for its power requirements while a car battery is relatively undersized(?) for the power volume requirement of the vehicle (as compared to gasoline.) I guess if you make a battery with enough capacity to drive 450miles, you still have to carry the battery with you which in turn reduces the effective range (gasoline actually gets lighter as you empty the tank.) So smaller batteries, more frequent recharging.

Anyway, you can do some recharge but not enough, the trips are too short to provide enough recharge time anyway, plus electric car battery capacity is still limited by size/weight and current tech can't solve that. Or thereabouts.

But electric/electric hybrid race cars are getting better and better.

On my Tesla the overwhelming majority of the power in the battery is used for propulsion. All the rest of the functions, even heating and cooling, are tiny compared to moving the car.

Heating is a larger draw than cooling.

There are cars with solar panels on the roof. These are nearly meaningless, like trying to fill a swimming pool with a dixie cup. Except Aptera, which doesn't yet exist on the market but may be efficient enough to charge itself in a meaningful way.

https://aptera.us

Batteries simply have less energy per unit of mass than gasoline and it's not close. But internal combustion engines are also notoriously inefficient, even the best ones. My car will go ca. 275-310 miles on a charge and the battery has the energy equivalent of just a few gallons of gas.

[j44ke]

On my Tesla the overwhelming majority of the power in the battery is used for propulsion. All the rest of the functions, even heating and cooling, are tiny compared to moving the car.

Heating is a larger draw than cooling.

There are cars with solar panels on the roof. These are nearly meaningless, like trying to fill a swimming pool with a dixie cup. Except Aptera, which doesn't yet exist on the market but may be efficient enough to charge itself in a meaningful way.

https://aptera.us

Batteries simply have less energy per unit of mass than gasoline and it's not close. But internal combustion engines are also notoriously inefficient, even the best ones. My car will go ca. 275-310 miles on a charge and the battery has the energy equivalent of just a few gallons of gas.

Right. But evidently there is a point where adding capacity by increasing battery size reduces gains in range from the added capacity. So there is a sweet spot in battery design where you maximize the gains in range versus size & weight of the battery.

Or to put it another way - you could make a long distance battery that no car could carry a long distance.

I found it interesting to hear weight discussed in terms of car racing. That drivers learn to benefit from the varying fuel weight in gas-powered cars over the course of a race (handling, acceleration, braking, etc.,) while racing in Formula E cars there isn't the same weight shift because the battery weight doesn't change. I just assumed that fuel weight in a race car was a non-factor given all the other things going on, but it is actually a key calculation.

[Saab2000]

Right. But evidently there is a point where adding capacity by increasing battery size reduces gains in range from the added capacity. So there is a sweet spot in battery design where you maximize the gains in range versus size & weight of the battery.

Or to put it another way - you could make a long distance battery that no car could carry a long distance.

I found it interesting to hear weight discussed in terms of car racing. That drivers learn to benefit from the varying fuel weight in gas-powered cars over the course of a race (handling, acceleration, braking, etc.,) while racing in Formula E cars there isn't the same weight shift because the battery weight doesn't change. I just assumed that fuel weight in a race car was a non-factor given all the other things going on, but it is actually a key calculation.

I used to watch F1. Fueling strategy was definitely a thing and it wouldn’t surprise me if they knew the difference in mass of the driver at the end of the race and balanced fluid intake. I’d be willing to bet they knew the difference in mass of a new tire and one after 20 laps and knew the difference in grip vs mass and where that crossover point was. It’s like cycling and marginal gains.

[Too Tall]

This is not worth the extra cost. None the less, here is how the Tundra/Hybrid works.

[j44ke]

"Wow, that's a hybrid? How does it have so much power?"

"We put a 3.4L Twin-Turbo V6 in it."

[Too Tall]

"Wow, that's a hybrid? How does it have so much power?"

"We put a 3.4L Twin-Turbo V6 in it."

That engine is legendary. Even without Hybrid that truck is a beast. If Gen2 of that vehicle is still a good purchase, bugs-b-gone, I'm all in. For one thing, I use my pickup around town when not towing. When towing, it is a serious business.

[Marvinlungwitz]

I used to like group B racing, a fan from afar. All I could do was read about it, so a movie sounds awesome.

1983 was interesting. I’m wondering how Lancia’s failure to show up for the last races will work out for a movie, but I guess Audi’s almost catching them in points at the end was kind of nail biting. Likewise for Mikkola winning the driver’s competition, how’s that going to play, given the movie’s apparent Lancia bent?

I hope there’s something about Michèle Mouton (I was a big fan), but it wasn’t her best year.