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Thread: The direction of society lately

  1. #241
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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Walberg View Post

    Oh, and he is breaking science, too, taking back indirect costs on NIH grants.
    Need to get rid of those free thinking professors.
    I'm not even sure what is the end goal here, and it's very possible that there isn't one.

    As implemented, the cut will reduce indirect cost to 15% of overall grant, whereas indirect cost could easily account for 50% at tier-1 research institutes.

    This will gut quite a bit of research, but I'm not sure if private companies will pick up the slack. There are only so many Bell Labs, after all.

    Perhaps the more likely motive is a quid pro quo, restoring indirect cost only if the institution dismantles wholesale ethnic studies programs and such.

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    Sorry, been busy. Here is the USNI article on her firing. https://news.usni.org/2025/01/21/adm...ard-commandant
    I think the issue is not about why she was relieved of command. For those reasons, I really careless.

    The issue I believe is the powerplay of evicting her from quarters with 3 hrs notice. We are talking about a career officer with 40 years service.

    If reports are correct, Coast Guard had granted her up to a 60 day waiver to find alternative housing arrangements.

    Bill correct me if I am wrong, but if a high level officer in the navy is relieved of command , are they typically frog marched off the boat or are they given a transition period?

    D
    Last edited by vertical_doug; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:31 AM.

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    I'm not even sure what is the end goal here, and it's very possible that there isn't one.

    As implemented, the cut will reduce indirect cost to 15% of overall grant, whereas indirect cost could easily account for 50% at tier-1 research institutes.

    This will gut quite a bit of research, but I'm not sure if private companies will pick up the slack. There are only so many Bell Labs, after all.

    Perhaps the more likely motive is a quid pro quo, restoring indirect cost only if the institution dismantles wholesale ethnic studies programs and such.


    Luckily, I saved my copy of Project 2025


    Yes, the document "2025 Mandate for Leadership" contains multiple direct references to the NIH (National Institutes of Health) and its funding structure. Here are the key points related to NIH grants and future plans:


    1. NIH Grant Funding and Reform

    o The document criticizes the current NIH funding model, stating that research funding is controlled by a small group of highly paid and unaccountable insiders at NIH, many of whom stay in power for decades.
    o It proposes breaking the NIH monopoly on directing research funding and imposing term limits on top NIH leadership.
    o Congress is encouraged to block grant NIH’s research budget to states, allowing states to fund their own scientific research instead of relying on centralized NIH funding.

    2. Ethical and Bioethics Considerations in NIH Research

    o The document argues for eliminating NIH funding for abortion-derived fetal tissue research and embryonic stem cell studies.
    o It proposes an ethics advisory committee to oversee NIH research and calls for redirecting funding toward "life-affirming, ethical research" alternatives.

    3. Conflicts of Interest in NIH Funding

    o The NIH is accused of maintaining problematic industry ties, including allegations that the NIAID (National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases) owns half of the patent for the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine.
    o The document highlights that NIH employees (and their heirs) personally receive up to $150,000 annually from Moderna vaccine sales.
    o It suggests prohibiting pharmaceutical companies from donating to NIH foundations, arguing that these contributions create a conflict of interest in how research is funded.

    4. Decentralization and Structural Changes
    o The document suggests decommissioning the NIH and CDC foundations, which it claims are heavily influenced by pharmaceutical industry donations.
    o NIH research priorities should shift away from "woke policies," particularly those related to gender studies.

    5. Regulation and Oversight of NIH Research
    o NIH funding priorities should be reevaluated, and certain research areas (such as gain-of-function research) should be reconsidered.
    o A National Council on Bioethics (NCB) should be reestablished to assess the ethical implications of NIH-backed research.

    Summary

    The document proposes a major overhaul of NIH funding, including:
    • Decentralizing research grants to the states.
    • Restricting funding for fetal tissue and embryo-based research.
    • Addressing conflicts of interest by limiting industry influence.
    • Imposing term limits on NIH leadership.
    • Eliminating certain research areas, such as gender studies and controversial bioethics topics.
    Last edited by vertical_doug; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:46 AM.

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Just in case you care to consider what is happening to USAID, it was all right there hiding in plain sight.

    Project 2025 (Mandate for Leadership) discusses USAID (United States Agency for International Development) extensively, proposing major reforms. Key themes include:

    1. Mission and Criticism of USAID
    • USAID is described as an agency that expands U.S. markets, supports stability, and advances U.S. national interests.
    • The document criticizes USAID for bureaucratic inefficiency, wasteful spending, and funding a self-serving “aid industrial complex” that includes UN agencies, NGOs, and contractors.
    • The Biden Administration is accused of using USAID to promote a progressive political agenda, including climate policies, gender initiatives, and systemic racism interventions.

    2. Proposed USAID Reforms
    • Decentralization & Budget Cuts: Advocates for deep cuts to USAID’s budget, returning to pre-COVID-19 levels, and shifting funding to local partners rather than large international contractors.
    • Exit Strategies & Self-Reliance: Calls for limiting long-term humanitarian programs, reducing aid to conflict zones, and creating country-specific exit strategies to phase out foreign aid.
    • Reforming Humanitarian Aid: Proposes cutting aid to unstable or hostile nations like Yemen, Syria, and Afghanistan where funds are allegedly misused by local regimes and international aid groups.

    3. Aligning USAID with U.S. Foreign Policy

    • National Security & Geopolitical Competition: The document suggests tying USAID funding more closely to U.S. strategic interests, particularly in countering China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) and supporting allies like India, Japan, and Taiwan.
    • Middle East & Aid to Adversaries: Recommends reducing aid to nations aligned with Iran, such as Iraq, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories, arguing that past assistance has failed to improve governance.

    4. USAID’s Role in Africa & Latin America

    • Africa: Criticizes USAID for exporting progressive values (e.g., gender policies) that are unpopular with local communities and allowing China to dominate trade and infrastructure projects.
    • Latin America: Points to failed U.S. aid efforts in reducing instability, highlighting leftist governments and corruption as persistent problems.

    5. Strategic Realignment & Bureaucratic Reform
    • Appointing a Director of Foreign Assistance: Suggests elevating the USAID Administrator to Deputy Secretary at the State Department to streamline foreign aid coordination.
    • Expanding Private-Sector Partnerships: Encourages greater reliance on private investment and local faith-based organizations instead of large international aid agencies.

    Conclusion
    Project 2025 proposes a fundamental shift in USAID’s operations, focusing on:
    • Cutting budgets & limiting aid duration to reduce long-term dependency.
    • Shifting from global NGOs to local partners & private investment.
    • Reorienting aid to support U.S. national security & economic interests.
    • Countering China’s global influence through strategic aid distribution.

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    A lot of reading in between the lines to be done here.
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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Amazing how the actual writing and analyses of Project 2025 don’t actually cover up the religious zealotry, anti-diversity batshittery, conspiracy theory wingnuttery, unconstitutional and anti-democratic (small D) crap that’s baked in. Try as they have to cover it with a thick layer of ethics and efficiency frosting, it still stinks.

    Senator Angus King, independent from Maine, had this to say about one of Project 2025’s main architects:

    “Now, the nominee before us today is one of the ring leaders of this assault, one of the ring leaders of the assault on our Constitution. He believes in a presidency of virtually unlimited powers. He's written extensively about this. And explicitly rejects, for example, the exclusive power of congress to authorize and appropriate funds for the operation of the government. He espouses the discredited and illegal theory that the president has the power to selectively impound funds appropriated by congress, thereby rendering the famous power of the purse a nullity. I am not talking about the specifics and I will touch on A.I.D and other issues, but what I'm really worried about are the implications, the structural implications for our freedom and government of what's happening here.

    “We have to keep our eye on the big picture. Not all the confusion and smoke that's going on over the last couple of weeks. Mr. Vought is one of the principal authors of the infamous Project 2025 which the president strangely hadn't heard of during the campaign but now seems to be the essential guideline for his presidency. Project 2025 is nothing less than a blueprint for the shredding of the constitution and the transition of our country to authoritarian rule. He's the last person who should be put in the heart of the operation of our government.

    “Again, this isn't about politics. This isn't about policy. This isn't about Republican versus Democrat. This is about tampering with the structure of our government, which will ultimately undermine its ability to protect the freedom of our citizens. If our defense of the Constitution is gone, there's nothing left to us.

    I think his speech was brilliant, and I hope some of his Republican colleagues took the time and effort to listen to it.
    https://www.king.senate.gov/newsroom...itution-itself
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    Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. — James Baldwin

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by vertical_doug View Post
    I think the issue is not about why she was relieved of command. For those reasons, I really careless.

    The issue I believe is the powerplay of evicting her from quarters with 3 hrs notice. We are talking about a career officer with 40 years service.

    If reports are correct, Coast Guard had granted her up to a 60 day waiver to find alternative housing arrangements.

    Bill correct me if I am wrong, but if a high level officer in the navy is relieved of command , are they typically frog marched off the boat or are they given a transition period?

    D
    The CG was to provide housing for a set period of time. Not necessarily the Commandant's House, but housing. If a high level officer is "relieved for cause," a successor is named and the outgoing officer leaves. Let's say a commanding officer is fired for something like command climate, DUI, or an incident (running aground, collision), they are replaced by an acting commanding officer, usually an officer who is post command working at the squadron level as some kind of deputy until a permanent successor is named. The outgoing commanding officer is given some kind of position while an investigation is completed, and if senior enough, will likely retire. A good friend of mine was a submarine commander and his ship ran aground, causing him to be relieved. That is what's called a "no band change of command," meaning no ceremony, you just pack your stuff, move off the ship, and the new person takes over.

    For a service Commandant, they are well past 20 years and there is no parallel position for them, so they retire whether or not they were ready. Service Commandants typically have a large government quarters, a big house on base. They typically have a staff including cooks (active duty military), a vehicle, a driver, and security detail. If you are removed for cause, all of that will go to the new person, who will be given the quarters and staff. The outgoing person can still have base housing, just not in the big house. The CG Commandant's removal from the official quarters is not necessarily a power play, she should have expected it and already planned a move to alternative housing. It could have been handled better by DHS.

    FWIW, during grad week at the Naval Academy, the Superintendent, usually a three star (Vice Admiral), hosts garden parties at the residence for four days, each day is a certain group of companies, and we were on the last day since my son was still in 30th (out of 30) company and Sixth Battalion Commander. The house was built in 1906 and has a big garden, a professional kitchen, a spacious dining room, and a parlor for receptions that is bigger than my house. Overall, the house has 34 rooms. At the Naval Station in Norfolk, there is an "Admiral's Row" of houses built in the early 1900s. Most are occupied by Admirals but one, The Pennsylvania House, is used for official receptions. OT, but in 2000, President Clinton met with the families of USS Cole at the Pennsylvania House before the official memorial service on Pier 12.
    Retired Sailor, Marine dad, semi-professional cyclist, fly fisherman, and Indian School STEM teacher.
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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    A lot of reading in between the lines to be done here.
    Between the lines translated.
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/...rfering-a87895

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Hegseth fellating Putin

    How on earth did we get here?

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by takashi View Post
    Hegseth fellating Putin

    How on earth did we get here?
    Rupert Murdoch/Faux "news". And Meta.

    These platforms prey on people who aren't really critical thinkers and haven't got a very deep view of the world. It's no accident that Hegseth is a product of Faux 'news'.

    And for those who wonder where I get my news if not there, it's not from MSNBC either or any other TV news source. I read and dissect what I read and ask myself if it makes sense or not. If it does or doesn't I may search for more on a particular subject. But so many people just absorb what they've got on in the background 12 hours per day and as often as not it's Faux 'news'. Rupert Murdoch has led us to this place.
    Last edited by Saab2000; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:44 PM.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Rupert understands the power of appearance translating to authority for the populations that grew up on network news. It must be said that he is a master at manipulating people through their faith in the appearance of old school journalism, even as he rhetorically and practically sets real journalism on fire.

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Bad as what is going in Washington is, there is this conclusion from a person who is in a position to know where we are with respect to climate change:

    "It has been said (and I don’t have the attribution) that the greatest intellectual failing of mankind is to not be able to comprehend the mathematical implications of the exponential function. It is my own corollary aphorism that the second scariest place to live is to the left of an exponential knee. The scariest place to be situated is to the right of the exponential knee. And here we are at the former, staring blankly at our soon-to-be living-place in the latter.
    There probably was a point in the 80’s, soon after Jim Hansen made his famous plea to Congress when – with dramatic action – we could have turned the ocean liner around. No action (aside from grossly exacerbating action) has been taken. From any rational engineering perspective, it’s ‘game over,’ the current CO2 loading is sending us to a bad place, there is nothing even remotely on the political/economic horizon that will mitigate the trends, and there is really nothing within our power to stop it in any case, we can’t pull the CO2 and methane back, the Earth herself is refusing to extract any more for us (or absorb any more heat either, for that matter) and is beginning to vomit it all back to us – with considerable interest on the principal to boot. It’s game over.
    I see a couple of benefits to making this admission. First, it’s probably true. Second, there’s a certain fairness to encouraging people to ponder the (likely) future. There is a famous airliner disaster (true) story, of United Airlines Flight 232, in 1989, which crashed on emergency landing in Sioux City Iowa, killing roughly a third of the 300 passengers aboard (it being nearly miraculous that anyone survived). Flight 232 works as a parable on a number of levels, from the standpoint of an undetected (at least admittedly) manufacturing defect in the blades of the GE fanjet engine to the absolute bone-head engineering mistake in the design of the DC-10’s air-surface control-line routings. But mostly it is a parable in how Captain Al Haynes let the passengers know what they were about to experience. In short, the fan-blade in the tail engine failed, sending shrapnel throughout the tail section, and in particular, one shard traced through the primary, secondary and even tertiary back-up hydraulic lines (which were bundled adjacent to one another). All control-surface hydraulic fluid promptly drained from all lines, leaving Cpt. Haynes with no control of his wing or tail air-surface controls. Through some of the most magnificent flying art in the history of aviation, Cpt. Haynes, using only throttle controls on the two remaining engines managed to maintain a tiny measure of control of the aircraft, and bring it to within fighting-distance of a landing at Sioux City. As he approached the runway, at just below cruising speed (about 500 mph, because it was only at this speed that he could keep the nose up) he announced to the passengers that they were going to attempt something that had never been attempted before – a landing at nearly cruising speed. With about a minute to go before the event, he told them that “this is not going to be a landing, this is going to be a crash. This is going to be the very worst thing you have ever experienced. I want you to prepare yourself.”
    It’s ‘game over:’ this is going to be a crash. This is going to be the very worst thing that mankind has ever experienced, and we need to prepare ourselves. Many, perhaps most will not survive, quite possibly there will be no human survivors. Our high-level technical civilization, with all of its delicately intertwined technical, economic, material, sociological channels and meta-stable intricacies will almost certainly not survive. And we’re going to take much of the biosphere with us – it’s already happening, the sixth great extinction is underway and happening before our eyes. People need to be able to make critical life decisions with clear-eyed focus on what is likely to happen within many of our lifetimes, about bringing more humans into the world, about selecting careers that serve their own interest vs. that of the destroying powers-that-be, or that builds upon the human intellectual edifice that seems doomed to be a moot (and mute) monument to an extinct species and/or civilization in a very few years. It is in the interests of the powers that be, who will continue and accelerate their raping and pillaging of the rest of us and the biosphere for their own narrow self-interest, to demand perpetual and accelerating ‘growth’, perpetual war, more human flesh for cannon fodder and slave-wage-minions, and most of all perpetual obscene profits. It is in their interest to make us believe that they have the power to save us all, but they do not, they only have the power to make things much, much worse, as you well know and have well discussed. They will continue to bask in obese luxury until the very end, unless the rest of us rise up to stop them and try desperately to create conditions for some sort of survival (which will be impossible with them continuing to be in charge). But in order to know that such uprising is necessary, it has to become part of the public consciousness that humanity is about to crash in a hard and grisly fashion. Technology and its mavens won’t save us, technology and its mavens have likely mortally wounded humanity, and people must become aware, and morally (and mortally) outraged about that fact."

    I am 68. When I was 21 I worked on a farm in Northern California. The way ahead seems like a no-brainer. But the world went the other way, and here we are.

    Sorry to be a downer.
    Jay Dwight

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by ides1056 View Post
    Sorry to be a downer.
    Wow. Thank you for that. Is that published somewhere that you can provide a reference? A tough read, and well put. I did not like the kinda obtuse beginning, where they absolutely nailed it about numbers but yeah I know exactly where both sides of the exponential knee are, I just wish that was easier to explain.

    Great story told, too. Brilliant, who is it?

    "But in order to know that such uprising is necessary, it has to become part of the public consciousness that humanity is about to crash in a hard and grisly fashion."

    Let's Rock.
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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Jay, I am very sorry to agree with you that I do no think there is a way out of this that human society can manage to deal with.
    Trouble is indeed coming beyond anything that we now know.
    Elon will hold on to the end though.
    Mark Walberg
    Building bike frames for fun since 1973.

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Walberg View Post
    Jay, I am very sorry to agree with you that I do no think there is a way out of this that human society can manage to deal with.
    Trouble is indeed coming beyond anything that we now know.
    Elon will hold on to the end though.

    Elon will just blast off to Mars with his colonists for a modern rendition of Roanoke Colony in a new world.

    We all remember the bacteria in a petri dish experiment from our elementary school science class or did that stop after the 1970's?
    In the grand scheme of things, we aren't that different from the bacteria.

    Cheer yourselves up, watch Charleston Heston's Soylent Green from 1973. We just didn't know it was a documentary. We are almost there.

    I think Elon is looking for more furniture for his corporate apartment. He gets new furniture quite often. (watch the movie and you will understand this joke or ask AI to explain the joke in relation to Soylent Green, can it get anymore dsytopian?)

    Heck, I'll do it for you courtesy of GPT-4o

    The joke is a reference to the 1973 movie Soylent Green, in which the term "furniture" is used in a dystopian sense.

    In the movie, which is set in an overpopulated and resource-starved future, wealthy men live in luxurious apartments that come with women referred to as "furniture"—essentially concubines who are part of the lease agreement. These women have little autonomy and are treated as objects, much like actual furniture.

    The joke about Elon Musk frequently getting new "furniture" for his corporate apartment plays on this dystopian concept, implying (likely in a tongue-in-cheek or critical way) that he frequently replaces girlfriends or partners, much like the men in Soylent Green who casually acquire and discard the "furniture" that comes with their residences.

    It’s a mix of dark humor and social commentary, blending the film’s themes with Musk’s public persona.
    Last edited by vertical_doug; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:32 AM.

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    The highest ranked hospital in the US, The Cleveland Clinic Foundation, is now in the right’s cross hairs for promoting a “woke agenda”. Anti CCF advertisements are set to roll in Ohio and Florida.

    And no, they do not perform sex altering surgery on children. Sounds like “Consumer’s Research” needs to do better research, and have set themselves up for a libel lawsuit.
    Battery and T free cyclist.

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvinlungwitz View Post
    The highest ranked hospital in the US, The Cleveland Clinic Foundation, is now in the right’s cross hairs for promoting a “woke agenda”. Anti CCF advertisements are set to roll in Ohio and Florida.

    And no, they do not perform sex altering surgery on children. Sounds like “Consumer’s Research” needs to do better research, and have set themselves up for a libel lawsuit.
    DEI and Health equity are part of the woke agenda. Guilty as charged.

    Funny thing is both Cleveland Clinic and Mayo Clinic opened clinics in Abu Dhabi and Dubai as so many wealthy patients have health issues in those countries. Upon realizing everyone leaves the region and goes to London for the summer. We have brand new Cleveland and Mayo clinics in London now.

    Woke = better health outcomes. Everyone should want woke healthcare.

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    State Dept. is buying $400million worth of armor-plated Tesla trucks, but I am sure this purchase is a frivolous and corrupt expenditure that will quickly be canceled by the DOGE.
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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    State Dept. is buying $400million worth of armor-plated Tesla trucks, but I am sure this purchase is a frivolous and corrupt expenditure that will quickly be canceled by the DOGE.
    Does this product even exist beyond a prototype stage yet?

    Maybe Sec. Liddle Marco should consider that one of the executive orders unleashed on Jan. 20 demanded that “All agencies shall immediately pause the disbursement of funds appropriated through the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 (Public Law 117-169) or the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act (Public Law 117-58), including but not limited to funds for electric vehicle charging stations made available through the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Formula Program and the Charging and Fueling Infrastructure Discretionary Grant Program”.

    And given that those things will be lugging around an extra ton of steel plate, the tariffs are gonna hit the price as hard as the weight hits the mileage.

    Last edited by thollandpe; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:10 AM.
    Trod Harland, Pickle Expediter

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    Default Re: The direction of society lately

    TH: this is where the excerpt came from and begins from the beginning.


    JANUARY 17, 2025
    Risks of Ecosystem Crash-Landings
    ROBERT HUNZIKERFacebookTwitterRedditBlueskyEmail


    Biomes as well as individual ecosystems throughout the globe are experiencing considerable stress. As a researcher/writer since 2010 of more than 400 scientific-based articles, I am aware of what science says about the status of the planet’s ecosystems. Since reading hundreds of peer-reviewed papers, it’s not a pretty picture. Yet this is not obvious to the general public inasmuch as damaged ecosystems in large part due to excessive levels of greenhouse gases like CO2 initially show up where almost nobody lives, for example: (1) Antarctica (2) tropical rainforest (3) the oceans (4) Arctic permafrost, covering 25% of Northern Hemisphere landmass. Who lives there?
    People who live in NYC or LA or Des Moines don’t see the genesis of a chaotic climate system. But they do see the aftereffects, such as (1) Unprecedented flooding –2024 global record for most floods ever (2) Unprecedented drought, especially the Amazon, which is partially dying (3) Unprecedented heat – exceeded the IPCC line-in-the-sand at +1.5C pre-industrial worldwide, much, much earlier than expected (4) Unprecedented wildfires – twice the loss of the forest tree cover of 20 years ago (5) Unprecedented storms/fires – home insurance rates skyrocket or dropped altogether on both coasts (6) Unprecedented sea level rise -doubled since satellite recordings started.
    Nothing is normal any longer. There are no more one-in-100-year events, which statistically means a 1% chance of happening in any given year. Nowadays, it’s all current, no more 1% chances.
    Interestingly, emails from readers of my articles address these unprecedented climate events and occasionally somebody with an advanced degree in science or engineering who works for a high-profile institution. One such email recently crossed my desk in response to the article Net Zero/2050, Fantasy or Reality d/d Jan. 10, 2025. That email, in particular, struck a chord because it comes from a senior person at one of the world’s most prestigious, and widely recognized, institutions, and as a bonus, it’s a superb summation of where things stand and where civilization is headed.
    It is published herein in its entirety, no edits, no changes, the original email, as follows:

    Your latest article (from the weekend edition of CP) – as always – is excellent! I did notice an assumed subtext and one that permeates all discussions of ‘net-carbon-zero,’– which of course you know and have discussed before, but a fact that often stops people in their tracks during discussions of climate change and ‘mitigating actions’, the 1000 Giga-ton elephant in the room:
    Even if we were to achieve net-zero, that would be barely the beginning of our mitigation efforts, as the entire 200-year past atmospheric over-loading is still present, and will remain present for generations, wreaking havoc. And we are no-where near approaching a path toward ‘net-zero.’
    Removing already released atmospheric carbon is 1000’s times more difficult than removing it at the source (or eliminating the source), as you have extensively and excellently discussed, despite what the Fossil Fuel cartels would have us believe – as you have also discussed.
    Jay Dwight

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