Bikes and how they are ridden

[Too Tall]

Dang, I think we are having a great thread. Strong opinions, respect and some great ideas.

FWIIW "French Fit" is not. We call it that as a sales point for folks who are drawn to "it" whatever that is. Get it? We made it up. At least that's my take on French Fit.

The cultural reasons for this style of bicycle design and fitting is GREAT stuff and works when done properly. Dave makes a great point and if I might extend his point...no good fit happens without a strong skill set willing and able to apply the design and skills into a complete picture...the rider having skills to ride the bike and the bike well suited to the rider.

OMG???!!!! What's happening here???? Design, culture and abilities collide!!!

What's the answer? In my opinion we study, listen and talk it to death. No seriously.

HI BAMBI ;)

[Greg Costello]

yes it is easy to misread a post. Indeed perhaps I read more into the post I referred to more than the author intended or I misread the post entirely. My comment was directed at more than that post though. Maybe I have misread other posts as well, but some seem to have an edge to them that to me seems like they are designed for purposes other than to inform.

It is simply my hope that this forum can avoid the snarky, mean-spiritedness that is showing up with all too increasing frequency in other forums. And I hope that this site can be respected for what it is and neither an object of attack nor an electronic playground for folks with them an agenda other than positive contributions.

G

[palincss]

I think those who would think that didn't read or digest Dave's entire post orat best have misinterpreted it and Dave's nature and intent, as well as failing to appreciate that most of the folks that have chosen to post here on this forum are coming from the sport from a perspective that leans towards racing/fast recreational/performance riding/enjoying the performance aspects possible with finely crafted racing bicycles rather than the persepcetive or machines designed for more casual riding such as around town, to the office or running errands to the grocery store.

It's hard not to notice that most folks posting on this forum are biased towards racing/performance riding. Nothing wrong with that, of course -- except when you get to believing that all that actually matters, and take the position that those who aren't so biased are wrong and ignorant, and if they were simply educated and shown the error of their ways, they'd come around to the racer viewpoint -- and they'd get a proper fit, with low bars, too.

And that, IMO, is the gist of Dave's post. The rest was implementation details: "how do we use forums to accomplish that task?" I disagree with the basic premise. I think most people who have adopted a "bars level with the saddle" position have done so consciously and for a worthwhile purpose, not out of ignorance.

You're showing that bias when you draw a distinction between "finely crafted racing bicycles" and "machines designed for casual riding around town." That's hardly the total span of the cycling universe. Taking a good look at the finely crafted machines exhibited at the Cirque (and I think we can all agree they were finely crafted), I think you'd agree, very few of the new ones were racing bicycles, and very few were set up with a racer's position.

[palincss]

FWIIW "French Fit" is not. We call it that as a sales point for folks who are drawn to "it" whatever that is. Get it? We made it up. At least that's my take on French Fit.

The name may be made up, but the style and way of fitting has been around for a long time. You'll see plenty of it in The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles.

[Dave Kirk]

So you think the "traditional French Fit" is evidence of a lack of riding skill? Some might think that attitude extremely arrogant.

I'm sorry I gave you that impression. I was assuming that what we were talking about was race bikes and race bike fit. There are plenty of ways to sit on a bike and even more ways to ride one. A race bike ridden in a race like manner will in most cases yield a race bike fit. I might have been wrong in assuming that the race fit and use bike use was the focus here.

I see nothing wrong in the slightest with a french fit. If it works for how the bike is being used for that rider it seems perfect to me. Whatever allows folks to get out and enjoy themselves seem very cool to me.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Threads like this are funny in a way to me. I feel I have thoughts, experience and some knowledge to share and I have been generously been given a place to share it. I didn't know what to expect when writing stuff like my original post and I must say I have been surprised in a way. While many folks seem to have appreciated the thread and the thoughts it provokes other seem to be upset with me. I can see that some might think what I write is bullshit and I can respect that but others seem to be looking for a way to knock me down a notch or twist my words or meaning in a way I never intended. I've gotten a good number of PMs or emails telling me what an arrogant ass I am for giving my opinion. This is too bad IMO but the only way I can think to prevent it is to keep my mouth shut.

I don't understand why it needs to be this way. I don't know if the way I write or the tone it gives upsets folks in some way. It could be and I would welcome feedback on this. I can assure you all that I just want as many of us as possible to enjoy our bikes as much as possible and get the most out or the bikes we currently own as well as get the best bike for our needs in the future. That is my only agenda. If this is being actively discouraged I can play that way. If I'm getting it wrong I hope that shows in the future.

I'm going to go ride my bike with my lovely wife and with any luck recall what this could be all about.

dave

[Greg Costello]

[QUOTE=palincss;12841] Nothing wrong with that, of course -- except when you get to believing that all that actually matters, and take the position that those who aren't so biased are wrong and ignorant, and if they were simply educated and shown the error of their ways, they'd come around to the racer viewpoint -- and they'd get a proper fit, with low bars, too. [end quote]

And this is where we differ in our interpretations. Dave talks about Lemond, old guys on crooked Colnagos crushing young pups, performance driving etc. The post is focused on this type of riding and then profers the opinion that many, not all, would benefit from a different position if so instructed. I see nothing arrogant nor do I see a suggestion that others are wrong or ignorant (except in the very technical sense of not having been given the opportunity to learn alternative ways of positioning on the bike than what they are using - hardly a far flung proposition. It's not like we have little league for road racing). If you go through the old posts and read Dave's riding skills #1 - #3 I think you'll see better Dave's intent.

Your other points re teaching folks to ride safely etc are obviously valid and important, but to me are addressing different "skills" than Dave was referring to in his original post. And for most of the populace, much more vital and important, but again, a different context than the original thread.

For what its worth, Dave designed two bikes for me with drops much closer to a "french fit" than what I think is coming to mind here for the "racer position." At 50 with a bad back I'm not personally biased towards 12 cm of drop! Go back to the other place and check out how many others have set up their Kirks and reconcile those bikes with your characterization of where Dave's coming from. I don't think they fit.

[taylorj]

Mr. Kirk. I love your posts. I can't imagine what's up with people telling you off in a PM. Doesn't make sense...When I went to Italy I was happy that TT made your post a sticky so I could find it when I got back to earth. Folks look for ways to mis-interpret sometimes. Or they have some hang-up that has them read you in a cynical way. I love bikes. I don't agree with everything you or anyone says---but the respect for what you do is there always. I like riding beautiful bikes. I like riding them beautifully. So all coaching is listened to even if it doesn't work for me. Please continue with your posts. Sometimes these boys act like chicks...HA! I am sure I will get flamed for that one.

Even if I don't race bikes, being able to have the skills to ride with racers is imperative if I want to ride with my husband. All cycling skills are useful. We all have different styles.

Signed Joni "The hippie-cycling-girl who loves expensive beer and expensive bikes and has a crappy car, but loves hot bubble baths! I like apples and prunes atmo."

[e-RICHIE]

Signed Joni "The hippie-cycling-girl who loves expensive beer and expensive bikes and has a crappy car, but loves hot bubble baths! I like apples and prunes atmo."

arrange disorder

[taylorj]

arrange disorder

Exactly!

[Too Tall]

Is it wrong to say I LOVE THIS PLACE? :)

[Gone 'n POP]

A few weeks ago I took a high performance driving and autocross school. We all drove our our cars and had an instructor with us most every moment of the day. In the 8 hours I took part in this not once did any of the instructors talk about the car. It was all about how to use the car. Timing, intensity, duration, looking ahead, picking of lines, etc. was the focus. I learned a lot. I wish the bike thing was more pragmatic like this.

Going back to the OP, it's obvious to me that the disconnect isn't one of what you're offering to teach but rather, it's probably the attention span of the readers and the tolerance of the forum for detailed postings in general. If you're looking for the kind of instruction you've described above to be applied to bicycle riding, via and toward, an interested readership, I think it best to write it out, post it and see what replies it generates. Sounds like a great thought for a thread and one I'd be interested in reading.

Though I'm at a loss to understand why your OP would generate intention-critical private messages, I do understand something of why people might feel slighted by it: Not very many people IME, who appreciate bicycles and riding in general care about Lemond, dressing like a racer or bicycle racing itself and they'd still like to be taken seriously on this board.

What real percentage of the worlds ridership is actually racing? Probably less than less than a millionth of a percentage point. I don't doubt though, that most everyone wants applicable ideas on how to become a better rider. Do you know your readership?

Since the board is new, I'm supposing that people would like to know whether this is a 'racers opinion only' board or whether it's about fine bicycles and bicycle riding.

Danny

[e-RICHIE]

Going back to the OP, it's obvious to me that the disconnect isn't one of what you're offering to teach but rather, it's probably the attention span of the readers and the tolerance of the forum for detailed postings in general. If you're looking for the kind of instruction you've described above to be applied to bicycle riding, via and toward, an interested readership, I think it best to write it out, post it and see what replies it generates. Sounds like a great thought for a thread and one I'd be interested in reading.

Though I'm at a loss to understand why your OP would generate intention-critical private messages, I do understand something of why people might feel slighted by it: Not very many people IME, who appreciate bicycles and riding in general care about Lemond, dressing like a racer or bicycle racing itself and they'd still like to be taken seriously on this board.

What real percentage of the worlds ridership is actually racing? Probably less than less than a millionth of a percentage point. I don't doubt though, that most everyone wants applicable ideas on how to become a better rider. Do you know your readership?

Since the board is new, I'm supposing that people would like to know whether this is a 'racers opinion only' board or whether it's about fine bicycles and bicycle riding.

Danny

water seeks its own level atmo. this place is just a message board, not life.
i s'pose if folks started talking about small portions at french restaurants, it'd
be a board about food and restaurants. as it is now, i didn't see any texts
so far that warrant putting dave, his ideas, or the OP under such a micro-
scope. did i miss something? you wanna address the cost of oil, no problem.
should more people bicycle commute? sure. sounds swell to me. i don't know
why it has to put as an either/or question:
>> a 'racers opinion only' board
>> fine bicycles and bicycle riding.
that, in itself, seems limiting atmo.

[Gone 'n POP]

water seeks its own level atmo. this place is just a message board, not life.
i s'pose if folks started talking about small portions at french restaurants, it'd
be a board about food and restaurants. as it is now, i didn't see any texts
so far that warrant putting dave, his ideas, or the OP under such a micro-
scope. did i miss something? you wanna address the cost of oil, no problem.
should more people bicycle commute? sure. sounds swell to me. i don't know
why it has to put as an either/or question:
>> a 'racers opinion only' board
>> fine bicycles and bicycle riding.
that, in itself, seems limiting atmo.

I believe it was Dave himself whom asked for that microscope.

I agree that titling the intent of the board seems limiting but the reality is that there has been an attempt to put the racers view on a pedestal here and I think there's a more limited 'racer' readership than is apparently assumed. If I'm wrong, what might the more responsible question be?

[e-RICHIE]

I believe it was Dave himself whom asked for that microscope.

I agree that titling the intent of the board seems limiting but the reality is that there has been an attempt to put the racers view on a pedestal here and I think there's a more limited 'racer' readership than is apparently assumed. If I'm wrong, what might the more responsible question be?

well heck now we're gonna have to be frank, and when that happens, folks
get all offended and shiit. atmo even this so-called french fit stuff has roots
in, er - france. more to the point, most of the recent francophilia stuff is
directly tethered to the french trials, the PBPs, and similar events, all of
which were/are competitions. so where's the rubmo? the fastest guy wins,
and when he wins on a rene herse, folks wanna ride one and look like they'd
be hot and all proper looking atop a close copy of one. it's all good atmo.
mebbe there's only one real question ever: if we think we're cool, and they
think they're cool, how come we have these silly threads trying to make
distinctions between the nits?

[Saab2000]

It's not a racer board. But many folks on here race or used to race. Generally speaking, traits that are good in a racing bike are good in all bikes. I am not talking about tons of drop or weighing 6.8 kg or whatever, but proper balance, handling, predictability, rigidity, flexibility, etc.

Eddy Merckx's bikes were 'race' bikes but looked a lot more like today's so-called 'Randoneur' bikes. Watch vids of the Cannibal and you'll see a racer.

The bike don't matter, but it's critical. If that makes sense.

Yo Yo Ma would prolly sound pretty good any any Cello. But he sounds better on the best Cello right?

Eddy Merckx or Lance Armstrong or Bernard Hinault would kick ass on most any bike. But they performed their art on racing bikes. But what made those bikes great are the same characteristics that make any bike great.

Ride what you like and like what you ride.

[Greg Costello]

I the reality is that there has been an attempt to put the racers view on a pedestal here and I think there's a more limited 'racer' readership than is apparently assumed. If I'm wrong, what might the more responsible question be?

Where's the pedestal? Folks talking about racing type bikes will talk about that type of bike and how to ride it. Where does the obligation to address the rest of the universe of riders arise from?

If folks wanna talk about other types of bikes and riding fine, start a post or add a comment that adds value or a point of view. That's good stuff.

But what's the point in anyone going beyond that or even without adding that value, attacking a poster or a post because it doesn't seem to discuss what you ride or want to ride? It's just the internet not an indictment of personal choices. Why do people take offense at these things? They're bikes not a reflection of ones self worth. Personal attacks on folks that are taking the time and putting themselves out there to help and share their years of wisdom and experience is chickensh*t.

[shanerpvt]

a few random thoughts:

a) doesn't anyone read something they disagree with and just think to themselves.........i disagree?

b) DK is a strait up, good dude. i am thankful to Dave and others willingness to share their knowledge and experience with us.

c) i saw the word obtuse used several time in this thread...........i thought that word was reserved for the jerk?

d) my cycling ability (or lack there of) has ZERO...repeat ZERO effect on my own selfworth as a human being.

cheers,

shaner

[GrantM]

So you think the "traditional French Fit" is evidence of a lack of riding skill? Some might think that attitude extremely arrogant.

For what it's worth.... before you take Dave to task... does "french fit" qualify as "fred"?

I've seen a lot of vintage Rene Herse, Alex Singer, Toei, Weigle and other "french fit"
drop bar road bikes.

I don't recall any of them having the bars level with the saddle, with piles of spacers under
the headset, and 90' stems, or short top tubes on large sizes, and forward saddle positions, or any
of the 'examples' anything so called "fred" like... maybe there were some i've missed.

But the vast majority of classic vintage so called "french fit" bikes have maybe 6-8 cm's of drop,
and are very nicely proprotioned. Saddle is back, bar drops are close to level with the
ground, the stems are almost on top of the headset by 'fred' standards...

To me, 'french fit' is about balance. It's a beautiful way to execute the design of the bike
with the purpose of handle well with some weight, and work with the rider contact points that
go with long distance riding under a fit rider.

-g

[Saab2000]

That bike is a an Aston Martin in a field of Ferraris. It'll keep up! If the right rider is riding it......

[flick]

It's often misconstrued on this and other forums that the appreciation of fine things and the PROPER use of those things constitutes arrogance. Some get it, some don't, some of us have patience for those who don't, there are days when I like to think I do, todays not one of them. I've thought about self awareness vs ignorance on a bike, I don't often race but an occasional CX race but I care enough about the art of riding to ride a fine bike that meets an aeshestetic standard and ride well and right, it sets me part from those "who do not care", I am a cyclist.