Bikes: How they are ridden Part II

[jerk]

raising the handlebars is an easy way to get a bike rider to stop complaining. hence, bikerider, i recommend you raise your handlebars.

listen- this isn't about physical deformities, or that guy you know who is so much faster on his fasterbackwards!!! bike than that other guy you know who bought petacchi's old dogma on ebay, this about the proper way to ride a road bike. there is a right way...not in a moral sense, which is why no one should get their panties in a knot over this shi'ite, but a right, as in proper, way to position the cyclist on a road bike.

if people are not comfortable on their road bike it is really simple to put them on a trainer or a size cycle and keep raising the handlebars until the thing starts to resemble the position of a bar stool....but this may not be the position that will be the most comfortable out on the road.....bikes work best when the glutes are working....glutes only work when their thrust forward at a certain angle; fasterbackwards!!!! doesn't let the glutes work. even giant fat people lean forward to stand up out of a chair, because you need a certain hip angle to get those muscles working.....it ain't about aero, it ain't about looking like michelle bartoli, it ain't about "drop", it's about muscle recruitment and bike balance that allows one to ride in a comfortable, efficient position for long periods of time over varied terrain at a fairly quick pace. your (by your i mean all of you) biomechanics are no different than those guys on tv, you should be able to approximate the same positions with little if any work.

jerk

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

There are exceptions to every rule, but at least one of the goals of a cyclist should be fitness.

brilliant. BRILLIANT atmo.
i fully agree.
and a credo like this would have explained away points of view
on many now-locked threads atmo. archibald for supreme leader.

But hey, whatever gets you on your bike.

brilliant atmo!
and to quote that feeble hotel worker in Spinal Tap:
i am as god made me.

[CXinNH]

snip

if people are not comfortable on their road bike it is really simple to put them on a trainer or a size cycle and keep raising the handlebars until the thing starts to resemble the position of a bar stool....but this may not be the position that will be the most comfortable out on the road.....bikes work best when the glutes are working....glutes only work when their thrust forward at a certain angle; fasterbackwards!!!! doesn't let the glutes work. even giant fat people lean forward to stand up out of a chair, because you need a certain hip angle to get those muscles working.....it ain't about aero, it ain't about looking like michelle bartoli, it ain't about "drop", it's about muscle recruitment and bike balance that allows one to ride in a comfortable, efficient position for long periods of time over varied terrain at a fairly quick pace. your (by your i mean all of you) biomechanics are no different than those guys on tv, you should be able to approximate the same positions with little if any work.

jerk

jerk

make this sticky!!!
bicycle wisdom at it's best

[Dekonick]

I think that most all of what you say is correct. One must realize that there are a zillion cyclists who are riding with relatively little actual saddle time. As they ride more and evolve more as a cyclist/rider, or whatever anyone wants to call it, they become better in tune with their own body, what works for them and what does not. They can feel the difference in changes that they had no understanding or sensitivity of previously- saddle height, or a fore/aft saddle position change, or change in stem height or rise,....Receiving insight from someone who has gone through the evolutionary process of becoming a better rider certainly will help them, not only obtain a better fit, but ultimately become a better cyclist and enjoy cycling more. Those who possess experience in fitting cyclists and are good at it, can be profoundly helpful. Those folks aren't born that way. They had to experience it, understand it, have insight into it, and be able to teach it to those who want to learn it.

As one becomes better fit, rides more, and becomes better as a cyclist, that person becomes more discriminating and sensitive to what works and what does not work for their improvement. Add some insight from someone who has been there and has done that, some real dedication on part of both, and bingo, you get a better fit and improved cyclist.

Clearly you have evolved as a cyclist as described above.

There are however many exceptions relative to saddle versus handlebar height. I have a friend who rides with his handlebar slightly above his saddle. He was fit by Tom Kellogg at the barn for a race type ti frameset. He works very hard at his cycling all year round and has improved greatly. He has a well structured all year program in place. Why are his bars so high? Because of a neck problem.

Clearly as one evolves from a complete novice to whatever level one ultimately reaches, there are many changes that occur in the cyclist, including but not limited to, a change in position on the bike and how the bike is designed for whatever purpose it is being used.

The brand new novice cyclist does not have a clue, and where the handlebar is relative to saddle is probably meaningless to most at that stage of cycling. Those who know better can and do help immeasurably in the process of becoming better.



Sandy

I fall into this category myself - my bars are a little lower than my saddle, but if I go much lower, I can't tolerate the neck strain. I fractured T-12, herniated c5,c6 20 years ago in a high speed car accident. I should have died. To this day, at work, if I have to wear my helmet for more than an hour my neck screams...but I manage. On my bike, I find if my position is too low the strain of lifting my head up for hours makes the ride unenjoyable. Oh - I was fit by Smiley BTW and I love my present position, even if it doesn't pass muster with the 'gets it' crowd.

Do I wish I could go lower? Sure do - but someone had better find a way to fix my neck first.

[flick]

I fall into this category myself - my bars are a little lower than my saddle, but if I go much lower, I can't tolerate the neck strain. I fractured T-12, herniated c5,c6 20 years ago in a high speed car accident. I should have died. To this day, at work, if I have to wear my helmet for more than an hour my neck screams...but I manage. On my bike, I find if my position is too low the strain of lifting my head up for hours makes the ride unenjoyable. Oh - I was fit by Smiley BTW and I love my present position, even if it doesn't pass muster with the 'gets it' crowd.

Do I wish I could go lower? Sure do - but someone had better find a way to fix my neck first.

If you are passionate about riding well, and that passion has led you to become knowledgeable about selecting your your bike and components for the most efficient riding position within your physical limitations then you and I know that you "get it" By the way. have you considered a "Heads Up" from Serotta, head tube extension to elevate your bars.

[Too Tall]

Dek-brotherman, you get it. I'm pretty jazzed this thread has so many productive comments. Are we wiki-worthy or what? :)

[Dekonick]

If you are passionate about riding well, and that passion has led you to become knowledgeable about selecting your your bike and components for the most efficient riding position within your physical limitations then you and I know that you "get it" By the way. have you considered a "Heads Up" from Serotta, head tube extension to elevate your bars.

Yup - I have 3 heads-up stashed away - 2 1", and one 1 1/8"

[Dekonick]

Dek-brotherman, you get it. I'm pretty jazzed this thread has so many productive comments. Are we wiki-worthy or what? :)

I honestly think that if everyone keeps adding pointers like we are gathering, a wiki will evolve. Fantastic stuff here - lots 'o love, lots to learn. This kinda reminds me of the SF of old - even tho I still post there, it seems to have devolved a bit. Still good peeps in both places...lotsa knowledge...

:)

I do think that a rando position can be a good position to ride - just not as fast. I like mine:)

I got the original idea from - of all people - Douglas. Until then I just suffered the pain. Smiley actually changed my position from lower and longer to slightly more upright. From a 12cm stem to a 9 (I hear the Jerk grumbling in the background) and to a Brooks B-17 from a San Marco era pro. I feel MUCH more comfy :)

Probably the best tip thus far was from DK - when standing and climbing, ensure your shoulders are over the pedals. Been working on this the past week or so. Amazing increase in power, but definitely more fatiguing.

TT:BTW - I still have that Ti B-17 pro for you to give one last shot - I never got around to mailing it as life got busy. It might change your view of Brooks.

[Too Tall]

No worries D. As for the Brooks, ultimately I'm not sure I can ever truly do it justice. My saddle to bar drop is pretty healthy...that's just how I'm built. My cross bike and track bike have less drop but still it is alot more than what I'd recommend to anyone using a Brooks. I am in the market for a new all rounder bike and will do some long hard design work, talking and experimentation to see if I will EVER benefit from level bar/saddle. Perhaps the great spirt does not want tall knuckle dragging apes like me to ride Brooks????

[Shinomaster]

My old man has been riding road for about as long as I have. He looks at his bike as an exercise machine. He doesn't pay any attention to how his bike's proportions look and discussions like this would be lost on him. His bars have always been lower than his saddle, and he was set up this way at Wheel Works back in the 90's..He just enjoys riding his bike, and he does put in the miles every year. In the winter he spends time in a weight room and he credits this for his improved climbing prowess. According to my brother who rode with him recently, he is pretty fast for being 64! He has a hard time with his neck and hands so we might find him a more upright frame like Synapse or a Giant ocr, because he is not a racer, and probably doesn't need a crit bike anymore. I'm going to Elmira this coming August and I'm excited to ride him him up Harris Hill!

[GrantM]

Just have fun....

I ride bikes for fun. I sell bikes & other stuff to pay for my fun.

I wonder how many people would buy a GM car instead of a Honda or Toyota,
because the GM cars are 'just for driving'? You don't race your car. Why does 'better' matter
at all? Why try hard at anything? Just show up everyday and have some fun...

-g

[palincss]

No worries D. As for the Brooks, ultimately I'm not sure I can ever truly do it justice. My saddle to bar drop is pretty healthy...that's just how I'm built. My cross bike and track bike have less drop but still it is alot more than what I'd recommend to anyone using a Brooks. I am in the market for a new all rounder bike and will do some long hard design work, talking and experimentation to see if I will EVER benefit from level bar/saddle. Perhaps the great spirt does not want tall knuckle dragging apes like me to ride Brooks????

I'm sure there's a Brooks that would work with a large saddle to bar drop. It's just not the B.17.

I'd take a look at the Team Pro or one of those sexy ones with the cutaway sides.

[Shinomaster]

Just have fun....

I ride bikes for fun. I sell bikes & other stuff to pay for my fun.

I wonder how many people would buy a GM car instead of a Honda or Toyota,
because the GM cars are 'just for driving'? You don't race your car. Why does 'better' matter
at all? Why try hard at anything? Just show up everyday and have some fun...

-g

My dad tries hard but he doesn't really know how it helps him. In his case ignorance in bliss. He doesn't obsess over his bike, the way his offspring do.

[1centaur]

So if I try to find the consensus from this thread, it would be this:

There is an optimal way to set up a race bike for efficiency and comfort for a given person, given their genetics, age and potential fitness/flexibility. Compromises that move away from the optimum should not be made too hastily, as work on fitness and flexibility can get many people closer to the optimum position than they might imagine. Faster backwards bikes can be the result of a hasty and misguided attempt to provide near term comfort, or they can reflect the best that realistically can be achieved given physical limitations. Those in the business have reason to believe the former is the dominant reason for such bikes, having seen many people on them without severe physical limitations. When they see a "proper" set-up they celebrate the combination of genetics and effort that such a bike implies, just as they celebrate the same combination in a racer or even a cyclist.

[Dekonick]

So if I try to find the consensus from this thread, it would be this:

There is an optimal way to set up a race bike for efficiency and comfort for a given person, given their genetics, age and potential fitness/flexibility. Compromises that move away from the optimum should not be made too hastily, as work on fitness and flexibility can get many people closer to the optimum position than they might imagine. Faster backwards bikes can be the result of a hasty and misguided attempt to provide near term comfort, or they can reflect the best that realistically can be achieved given physical limitations. Those in the business have reason to believe the former is the dominant reason for such bikes, having seen many people on them without severe physical limitations. When they see a "proper" set-up they celebrate the combination of genetics and effort that such a bike implies, just as they celebrate the same combination in a racer or even a cyclist.

Yeah - something like that...

[Ken Robb]

I missed "getting" what faster-backward means. I have been mis-fit twice by good fitters who did not consider that I wear no-line multi-focal glasses with a pretty strong precription. They fit me like I had their good eyes and in the shop it elt ok to me too. When I got out on the road and needed to see farther than 12 feet in front of my wheel it didn't work. I have to tilt my head back so I am looking through the center of the lenses or I can't see well at all. This requires that my bars be around the height of my saddle. People without strong prescriptions can just raise their eyeballs in their sockets at see so they wouldn't think about my problem.

If you don't have this problem try tilting your head back so the bottom of your jaw is parallel with the ground as you ride and see if you might not need higher bars to ride like that.

[Shinomaster]

Faster backwards means your bars are higher than your saddle..

[dbrk]

Faster backwards means your bars are higher than your saddle..

If I may...fasterbackwards means the whole design of the bike is, well, fasterbackwards, as if it were done without knowing _how_ to achieve the goals of the rider and the bike. It's not about the bars higher as such, though that can be a feature of it; rather, it's reaching a fit solution that turns the bike inside out, looks wrong, and doesn't get the rider down the road as effectively as it could. Some folks have injuries, aren't fit enough, or have other reasons (good, serious ones) that would explain why they need a design that wouldn't suit a dedicated race bike. There's nothing wrong with getting folks on bikes that work well and there are lots of ways to achieve that. But none of those effective solutions need much look like fasterbackwards bike.

[Watoni]

or better yet, listen to someone like Dario

I have lowered all the stems on my bikes after getting my Pegs.

Now, it's probably 6cm drop, so nothing much, but after getting fit in person he told me it would fit, told me it was a "race bike" so no need to worry about it being lower. I trusted him and told the shop to use zero spacers and cut the fork sight unseen

He's right. The bike is comfortable enough for tough double centuries

[Too Tall]

Now for some completely different advice. Wear an sports undershirt. Today Stage 9 TDF 36 min. into VS coverage you'll see a well placed rider take a tumble...jersey on backside is shredded and you can see a clean blood free undershirt poking thru. He prob. has a small amt of heat rash but not more. Wear a sports undershirt. That is all.