Coconino Cycles

[edoz]

I put stickers over the top. I agree with B-tragers' idea on this {his old santa Cruz frames} where Mtb's get scratched & you just put on new stickers. with the decals under the clear when you scratch the clear the sticker comes off too, and looks knackered {YRMV}. everyone has the option to bump up to Spectrum Powder if they want painted on logos, I credit them for the local paint job & they deal with Mark & Liz to come up with the look they are after. - Garro.

So you send the frame to Spectrum and the customer has all the contact with Mark and Liz and pays them? After that, does the frame come back to you before going to the customer?

[mimbresman]

Roger Ramjet, he's our man, hero of our nation, for his adventures just be sure & stay tuned to this station! Get ahold of me, Barin - we will be in the White Mtns from the 23rd for a week. meet us! We could meet in Alpine, AZ. - Garro.

See you in Alpine with a new supply of Tecate.

[steve garro]

So you send the frame to Spectrum and the customer has all the contact with Mark and Liz and pays them? After that, does the frame come back to you before going to the customer?

Yep. I let them do their job, and they do it well. the frame comes back to me, I have to put on the headbadge, any parts purchased from me, chase & face, H2O bottle bolts, all that fun stuff. - Garro.

[cardinal]

I get that you analyze most aspects of the build process pretty carefully (Gassflux rod to Aufhauzer, the Iowa brazeons...). Do you sell more frames or complete bikes? We all know completes make you more profitable, do you have any way to encourage people to step up to a complete? This is a question that has been burning in my brain lately.

[steve garro]

I get that you analyze most aspects of the build process pretty carefully (Gassflux rod to Aufhauzer, the Iowa brazeons...). Do you sell more frames or complete bikes? We all know completes make you more profitable, do you have any way to encourage people to step up to a complete? This is a question that has been burning in my brain lately.

Thanks, Matt - good Question. I think that the MTB side of clients gets fewer complete bikes. it sure seems that way. allot of re-using parts. I certainly try to get them to get as much as possible from me. I just plain ask - "is this going to be just a frame or a complete bike? Am I building wheels for you? I highly suggest you do." that kind of thing. If they just want a frame it's no worries, but if it's a non-standard part {re: non-shimano specs} I'll need that in my hand for the build, thank you. I think I have lost all my beating around the bush/shyness. I just ask. The client & I need to communicate to make this project come to fruition to each person's highest expectation, and just getting all the cards on the table seems to roll best. I do like the "all or nothing" approach. I don't have time to price out individual parts v. the WWW. You get a whole bike price, not a parts price breakdown. I don't mind just selling you just a King HS or Phil BB installed, but onesy-twosy parts eat up more time then you are likely to recoup. I still do allot of wheels for all over. I've been building wheels for 25yrs. & have a following. I like wheels - I can still make $$ when i'm tired at the end of the day from metalwork - Garro.

[edoz]

How do you handle people who want a complete bike but are having a hard time making component decisions? You can give people the technical rundown of XT vs XTR, but how do you deal with people who who want you to make the emotional decision for them? You had a bike shop, I'm sure you've had that experience before you started building. Also, was your way of dealing with that different as a shop owner compared to as a builder now?

[steve garro]

How do you handle people who want a complete bike but are having a hard time making component decisions? You can give people the technical rundown of XT vs XTR, but how do you deal with people who who want you to make the emotional decision for them? You had a bike shop, I'm sure you've had that experience before you started building. Also, was your way of dealing with that different as a shop owner compared to as a builder now?

Bike shop was more of an "upgrade" kind of deal - we had built bikes, and it was a "pick & choose" - here is how it is, what do you want to change? A custom bike is from scratch, so it's an open book. One of the first things is when you get to this level of custom build, most people know the finer points of XT v. XTR & already have an opinion formed, and just want your dos centavos. I have a line where people need to have their ducks in a row, after all, the bike has been on order for 10 months...........the other side of the coin is where people just say "build me a bike, I prefer silver components, and maybe a nice shade of ......... " these bikes always come out smoothly. I have been doing this quite awhile. All that said, hell - I'll debate phil v. Hadley with a customer at the end of the day over a beer as long as they want, it's my job, and i like it. most customers are great people & we mesh very well. I'm an easy guy to talk to -gotta go, the missus is taking me out for Thai - just brazed a frame & she is tapping me on the shoulder - later - Garro.

[nahtnoj]

How does the road bike advice about contact points translate into an off-road application where the rider is moving around so much more? Are there dimensions that get really important in MTB design that are not as relevant on the road side of things?

[steve garro]

How does the road bike advice about contact points translate into an off-road application where the rider is moving around so much more? Are there dimensions that get really important in MTB design that are not as relevant on the road side of things?

I wil be the 1st to admit that I'm not the guy to get a "true road bike" from. I've only bult 5-ish bikes with dedicated road brakes, but many that have cantis - more a 700c "all rounder" kind of bike - totally comfortable with that kind of bike, build lots of them. if it's under 28c i'm not your guy. First with Mtb's I look at standover hight with cycling shoes on to determine what wheel size/fork choice is appropriate - no 29ers for clients 5' 1" tall with a 28" inseam, for example. next is my secret sauce combo of torso/arm length to determine toptube length. I think more in the terms of TT length + seat tube angle then saddle setback. BB drop is also a variable which changes according to standover + intended use + fork travel as is head tube angle and trail.........it seems to me there are soooo many variables in MTB geometry - a bike with a rigid fork is going to be radically different then one built for a 120mm travel fork even though they are for the same person. Terrain also changes the bike. smooth & flowy is a different geometry then steep & ledgy - like road v. velodrome, for example. Chainstay length as well - then there are componetry choices.........does this help, or just muddy the waters? let me know & I will try to clarify any finer points - Garro.

[nahtnoj]

......does this help, or just muddy the waters? let me know & I will try to clarify any finer points - Garro.

That is pretty much exactly what I was looking for and expecting to hear - just some insight into the approach, not necessarily hard and fast rules.

Thank you,

Jon

[steve garro]

That is pretty much exactly what I was looking for and expecting to hear - just some insight into the approach, not necessarily hard and fast rules.

Thank you,

Jon

no worries, Jon! glad to help - Garro.

[PCW]

as far as 650B - I have to say it's making me look at either side of the coin{s} - 26" & 29"/700c. in so many ways 650B seems "just right" for allot of people. it just WORKS. all the ones I have built, the owners seem to say the same thing without quite putting the finger on it. I really hope it sticks. I think it will. 29er is good for some people, and really great for anyone 6'+. if the wheels look too big/small on the bike, they probally are. It's really just an arrow in our quiver to try to make the best ride we can. I try to make all my bikes have the same "flow" in apperance, and to do this the bike needs to fit, and the first step to that is the right size wheel...........Great Questions, Curt - Thanks!! - Garro.

Steve, I've been parroting this for years. I've been saying that "one day" you'll walk into a bike shop and buy a S/M/L frame and it will have 26/650b/29 wheels on it because that's what is going to fit the rider, or some form of that--but you won't just buy a bike based on wheel size. I'm not sure it will ever happen but being 6'+, 29er just makes sense for me. A 26" looks goofy for me, but not everyone is as tall as me so I don't knock 'em nor do I knock the 650b, just ride the one that fits me. It's great reading your story. You were always so helpful during the WWTP stuff on my first build on MTBR and the sleeve is on both of my current rides and the one that I'm building now. So all my frames are inspired by you and it's neat to trace that back to the history that you've been through. It's a gas. BTW, I went out this weekend and decided to just sit down and see how far I could get in a day. I've almost got a whole front triangle. Considering #1 took a year, #2 took 9 weeks, a day ain't bad for a front triangle. I just distinctly remember you commenting on something taking so long with WWTP, not even sure the context, but me saying that "not all of us have a stocked shop that is ready to go". I'm getting closer.

[steve garro]

. I just distinctly remember you commenting on something taking so long with WWTP, not even sure the context, but me saying that "not all of us have a stocked shop that is ready to go". I'm getting closer.

........but i bet it got a fire under you ass, eh?!? - thanks man - it's been fun watching your process. please show your work on Fridays {thurs...} and sign up to be "smoked out" huh? keep it up, the first 50 take some time - Garro.

[PCW]

........but i bet it got a fire under you ass, eh?!? - thanks man - it's been fun watching your process. please show your work on Fridays {thurs...} and sign up to be "smoked out" huh? keep it up, the first 50 take some time - Garro.

Well, maybe a little. The fire really was already there but it took a while for that wet wood to get burning. Wait, that doesn't sound right now that I think about it.....

I'll be showing my work on Fridays and I'm on Richie's list to be smoked out. Sounds like it'll be a while though, which is actually better I suppose. You in particular are really going to like what I have for you tomorrow.

[steve garro]

Well, maybe a little. The fire really was already there but it took a while for that wet wood to get burning. Wait, that doesn't sound right now that I think about it.....

I'll be showing my work on Fridays and I'm on Richie's list to be smoked out. Sounds like it'll be a while though, which is actually better I suppose. You in particular are really going to like what I have for you tomorrow.

Sweet. I often hope that I will have left a positive body of work when I an gone, and I like to include passing on what I know to others as part of this {us Garros don't live long - my uncles all died at ages from 32 to 59 & my mom's side seem to be born with cancer implanted + an SCI takes 10+ yrs off your life} . I just hope not to sound too surly, as I can be short with people that I think aren't thinking out a problem on their own but trying to let the keypad link them to someone who already has. {not that you are guilty of this, I applaud {sp?} your moxy in taking up Walt's offer!} I also see Q's offered up on line only to be met with a feeding frenzy of mis-information. I know I have not offered up as much direct info as I used to online, but to quote a wise man: "say something once, why say it again?" I'm actually going riding now! Ciao for Niao - Garro.

[steve garro]

From Anthony Maietta: QUOTE: Garro, I saw on your website that you offer un-filed frames. This may be a Smoked Out question, but its pertinent now...what percentage of your customers take you up on this? It is just astonishing how clean those look. Well done.- END QUOTE - Thanks! astonishingly few. I thought it would be all the rage, but only a couple have went with it. I think the big thing is to show that i CAN - you know what I mean? and, if someone is into it, they get $200.00 off- Garro.

[edoz]

Maybe part of it's that you list that option in black only. It sounds pretty appealing to me until you tell me I get one color.

[EricKeller]

when I grow up I want to be able to braze fillets like Steve. It suspect Eric is right, people want to choose their own color and $200 isn't too much to pay for that for most people

[edoz]

when I grow up I want to be able to braze fillets like Steve.

Hell yes. I'm getting closer, but I usually get some ripples like a tig weld. I'm lucky though, my bottom bracket junctions turn out better than the rest and they're the hardest to finish.

[EricKeller]

since there is more bb there to heat, that suggests you might need to turn the torch down on the other joints