Strong Frames

[OnTheEllipse]

Exactly! I just figured I wouldn't be a buzz kill and get into that.

buzz killed. Can I send you a white Hanes, a marker and 20 bucks?

I'm going to go ask worse questions in Steve's thread now

About how old is your average customer? Has your typical customer gotten younger or older over the years or has it changed much? I assume the custom frame market is front-loaded by a generation that grew up with steel, but I also know little about "your" world.

[Carl S]

buzz killed. Can I send you a white Hanes, a marker and 20 bucks?

I'm going to go ask worse questions in Steve's thread now

About how old is your average customer? Has your typical customer gotten younger or older over the years or has it changed much? I assume the custom frame market is front-loaded by a generation that grew up with steel, but I also know little about "your" world.

I'd guess that the most highly represented age range for my customers is 45-55 for road bikes, for MTB's it's younger. I'd say over the years it hasn't changed much. I think the reason is that it takes a certain level of sophistication to understand the value of the custom frame, especially steel, that sophistication comes with age. You also need to be in a place in life that you can afford the purchase.

[edoz]

What do you check when you have a frame on the alignment table, and what are your tolerances?

[Proparc]

I'd guess that the most highly represented age range for my customers is 45-55 for road bikes, for MTB's it's younger. I'd say over the years it hasn't changed much. I think the reason is that it takes a certain level of sophistication to understand the value of the custom frame, especially steel, that sophistication comes with age. You also need to be in a place in life that you can afford the purchase.

Over time, cyclists realize that cycling performance is really all about ergonomics. That realization does not come right away. It is not really about whiz bang materials, it's all about fit. That is why, I believe, cyclist tend to hit up the framebuilders later in the game.

Even if you have a $10,000 carbon wonder, that bike WAS NOT MADE FOR YOU! Having a craftsperson make something specifically FOR YOU, is a very exciting and at once intensely human and personal experience, that is hard to quantify.

The person who is going to make your bike FOR YOU, cares about YOU personally. They want to see YOU have something very very good. This is a very rare occurrence in our manufacturing based, mass produced society. Whether it is custom suits to custom yachts, this very personal and human experience, seems to remain at the top of the purchasing hierarchy in our society.

[Carl S]

What do you check when you have a frame on the alignment table, and what are your tolerances?

Hi Edoz, when I do the final alignment check I put the frame on the plate and I use a centerline reference for most elements. I hold the frame by the BB and I measure the whole thing without moving it. I measure HT twist and offset. I make sure the Seatube and dropouts are centered on the same plane as the headtube. I also check that the stays are equal distance from the centerline and perpendicular to the plate.
I try to keep the key measurements within about five thousands over the length of the frame although at that tolerance anyones readings will change if the sun comes out, the frame is moved, I sneeze on it etc, etc. So I use the results more as a validation of my process rather than a valuation of my results.

I'd also like to add that as I'm building the frame I continually check it on the plate to assure that it is behaving as expected. I try to avoid most if not all cold-setting and use welding sequence to control it's distortion. As I progress through the building process I can predict what it will do and if I stay on top of it, at the end I'll just be reading the alignment and won't have to make any adjustments.

[e-RICHIE]

So I use the results more as a validation of my process rather than a valuation of my results.

that is fucking brilliant atmo.
props to carlstrong.

[zank]

Yeah, that was one of most refreshing posts to read in a long time. It's nice to read the reality of the situation regarding alignment.

[edoz]

Thanks, Carl. I think it's great how you can concentrate on being ultra efficient and still be able to sweat things that the rider won't notice.

[progetto]

Hi Carl, When you sequentially weld to keep alignment,what sort of pull are we talking about? On the same subject, how many tacks would you typically use? I,m assuming you may have a slightly different approach between butted and straight guage,steel and titanium.

[Carl S]

Hi Carl, When you sequentially weld to keep alignment,what sort of pull are we talking about? On the same subject, how many tacks would you typically use? I,m assuming you may have a slightly different approach between butted and straight guage,steel and titanium.

I use the same sequence for all material. The amount, direction and location of pull is different for everyone but when you weld around the BB you can see the headtube move about 0.040" as you weld from one side of the BB to the other. At the headtube I usually get somewhere around 0.010" of twist so I start by putting in the twist (my fixture is set up to produce it) and once I'm done welding the twist will be gone. Keep in mind that these are rough measurements taken from the tube so they only indicate the frames movement, not it's actual final alignment. I never take a final reading off a tube.

When I tack a frame I use three tacks per tube. One at 10:00, one at 2:00 and one at 6:00. I tack with 0.025" wire and make the tack as small as I can. I prefer to use wire rather than fuse because it allows me to manipulate the frame while it's tacked without it falling apart.

[Archibald]

that is fucking brilliant atmo.
props to carlstrong.

I'm pretty sure Loretta wrote that part.

[e-RICHIE]

I'm pretty sure Loretta wrote that part.

he uses a SuperMistress atmo.

[MarkC]

Carl,

Great thread, love your bikes and ethic.

Back a few pages there was a question or two about the customer and managing customer priorities and I expect to some extent expectations. I'm wondering how often a customer has such high expectations for their new custom bike that there are only two possible results: (1) pure happiness or (2) severe dissapointment. If the latter, what type of discussion happens and is there a resolution path that makes sense?

By anecdote, I had a friend (now deceased) that had JP build him a bike to replace a beloved Redcay. He was very dissapointed with the new bike. So much so that he wouldn't ride it. I ended up with it (essentially he gave it to me as I was a poor college kid) and it was a fantastic riding bike frame. Peter built him a second frame (I don't know the arrangement if any) and he loved the second bike and rode it happily until he passed.

I would think dealing with the dissapointed customer is very difficult due to the potential emotional attachment on both sides. Further, the potential for damage to the brand image in the internet era is large. So curious how the custom framebuilder deals with that type of customer interaction if it happens.

--Mark

[steve garro]

you nailed the alignment post. thanks! - Garro.

[Bob Ross]

Hi Carl,

I'm fascinated, impressed, and encouraged by your alignment methodology and especially by your commitment to extremely tight tolerances...it's heartening to encounter a craftsman dedicated to Making It As Good As Possible, rather than Just Good Enough.

Does the inclusion of S&S couplers on a frame impact those alignment tolerances? I.e., is it possible to achieve the same degree of precise straightness (is that a word?) on a frame with couplers?

(For that matter, when you build a frame with couplers at what point in the process do they get installed? before the tubes get welded, or as an "after-market" (sic) option once the frame's already been assembled/aligned?)

Thanks.

[Carl S]

Hi Mark, managing customer expectations is definitely a big part of insuring satisfaction. And part of that is taking on customers that fit what you do. We all have a niche in which we really excel and outside that niche we are not alway as good as another builder. It has taken me a long time but I've learned how to say no to customers wanting something outside of my core specialties and it has saved me a lot of grief and money. But no matter how hard you try, you will from time to time disappoint a customer. In some cases it may be that the customer isn't being reasonable and in other cases it may be because I screwed up. In either case I rely on my relationship with the customer to resolve the issue. As long as I keep an open mind and don't get defensive and the customer is reasonable we can almost alway come to a resolution that make us both happy. In the rare case that the customer is unreasonable or frustrated beyond repair I give a full refund for their money. One thing I'd advise any business person is that it's much easier to gladly hand over a refund than it is to have a big confrontation, make the customer mad and then ultimately give the refund anyway. Another thing I have done in the past is fire customers before I even had a chance to disappoint them because I could see that they weren't going to be satisfied no matter what I did. In those cases, I find it easier to give them their money before I do a bunch of work rather than after.

Carl,

Great thread, love your bikes and ethic.

Back a few pages there was a question or two about the customer and managing customer priorities and I expect to some extent expectations. I'm wondering how often a customer has such high expectations for their new custom bike that there are only two possible results: (1) pure happiness or (2) severe dissapointment. If the latter, what type of discussion happens and is there a resolution path that makes sense?

By anecdote, I had a friend (now deceased) that had JP build him a bike to replace a beloved Redcay. He was very dissapointed with the new bike. So much so that he wouldn't ride it. I ended up with it (essentially he gave it to me as I was a poor college kid) and it was a fantastic riding bike frame. Peter built him a second frame (I don't know the arrangement if any) and he loved the second bike and rode it happily until he passed.

I would think dealing with the dissapointed customer is very difficult due to the potential emotional attachment on both sides. Further, the potential for damage to the brand image in the internet era is large. So curious how the custom framebuilder deals with that type of customer interaction if it happens.

--Mark

[Carl S]

Thanks Steve!

[Carl S]

Hi Bob, I put the coupler in before I weld the frame. Alignment is the same with or without them. Like I said I try not to cold set, so as long as I do everything like I normally do, things should turn out right.

Hi Carl,

I'm fascinated, impressed, and encouraged by your alignment methodology and especially by your commitment to extremely tight tolerances...it's heartening to encounter a craftsman dedicated to Making It As Good As Possible, rather than Just Good Enough.

Does the inclusion of S&S couplers on a frame impact those alignment tolerances? I.e., is it possible to achieve the same degree of precise straightness (is that a word?) on a frame with couplers?

(For that matter, when you build a frame with couplers at what point in the process do they get installed? before the tubes get welded, or as an "after-market" (sic) option once the frame's already been assembled/aligned?)

Thanks.

[John M]

Hi Carl,

I read on Anthony Maietta's blog about the advanced welding tutelage you provided during his visit to your shop. Outstanding of you to do that!

[edelbikes]

Hi Carl.

I've just read this thread and the one from Dave. Thanks for sharing so much !

Is there any recording of your framebuilding business seminar available somewhere ?

Thanks !
Francois