Dornbox Bicycles

[e-RICHIE]

I have to get out to the shop to assemble and ship a bike as well as run some errands (T shirts for the Expo). I'll be off line for a few but I'll be back later this evening. -Chris

4pm to 6pm are peak views hours at V place.
if too many posts linger we'll put this thread on auto-reply atmo.
hurry back.

[jerk]

4pm to 6pm are peak views hours at V place.
if too many posts linger we'll put this thread on auto-reply atmo.
hurry back.

Hi e-RICHIE,
Your question is important to me. I try to make bikes that are vertically compliant and laterally stiff. I pride myself on my (please choose one option) my shorelines my filets my welds my paint my geometry.
I hope this answers your question and look forward to seeing you in enter name of non-New England city hosting NAHBS show this calender year.
smoked out builder's name here

[Dornbox]

Here!

[Dornbox]

Hi e-RICHIE,
"I try to make bikes that are vertically compliant and laterally stiff"

Then stop using aero tubes!

Thanks for the auto reply. -Chris

[edoz]

Chris, do your bikes plane?
Seriously, welcome aboard. Good luck with your shop and your business. Are you going to have a new builder table at the Austin NAHBS?

[Dornbox]

Chris, do your bikes plane?
Seriously, welcome aboard. Good luck with your shop and your business. Are you going to have a new builder table at the Austin NAHBS?

Edoz! I just kicked out cash for Philly but once I recover, I plan on registering for NAHBS.... So if there's still a newbe table open in a month or two, I'm there. I lived in Austin for 7 months and was putting in around 250 kick a$$ miles a week. I love riding in Austin! So I could show up even if I can't get a newbe table just to say hey and to put in some miles.-Chris

[edoz]

Well in that case, I'll see you there. If the newbie tables aren't all full closer to the show I might pony up for one, it's a bit soon for me but Austin is about as close as it's gonna get to Tulsa. If I read the rules right, I don't actually have to be selling.

[e-RICHIE]

Edoz! I just kicked out cash for Philly but once I recover, I plan on registering for NAHBS.... So if there's still a newbe table open in a month or two, I'm there. I lived in Austin for 7 months and was putting in around 250 kick a$$ miles a week. I love riding in Austin! So I could show up even if I can't get a newbe table just to say hey and to put in some miles.-Chris

hey chris atmo -
here's a conceptual question i have for you or anyone at the front end of a commercial frame endeavor...
regarding the money you have alotted for this show/these shows, have you thought it through to the point
of having a goal in mind for the amount you have spent? each check you write is spread over x amount of
frames made a year, or so one would assume. is there a plan, or are you just spending with the hope that
the light will shine on you? i don't think it's a personal question and make no apologies if it's misinterpreted.
i think many folks just throw money away assuming that it turns into orders, and my inner nosey e-RICHIE
always has a point of view about spending money on marketing when there is no clear goal atmo.

[Dornbox]

hey chris atmo -
here's a conceptual question i have for you or anyone at the front end of a commercial frame endeavor...
regarding the money you have alotted for this show/these shows, have you thought it through to the point
of having a goal in mind for the amount you have spent? each check you write is spread over x amount of
frames made a year, or so one would assume. is there a plan, or are you just spending with the hope that
the light will shine on you? i don't think it's a personal question and make no apologies if it's misinterpreted.
i think many folks just throw money away assuming that it turns into orders, and my inner nosey e-RICHIE
always has a point of view about spending money on marketing when there is no clear goal atmo.

Great question and underlying point. At this juncture, my goal is all about investment. I did start with a business plan (actually took a class at the local CC when I decided to start this biz) but have since lost it... or forgot about it. I'll revisit it someday. For now, I'm just trying to build a brand. With my shop on premiss and all of my tooling owned, I basically sink everything back into the company... which actually was part of my original BP. By next riding season, I do plan on getting real and laying everything out for the following year or years. Honestly though, everything with my company is so fluid or dynamic that it's hard to draw anything concrete for it. A lot of things in life happen serendipitously for me, I'm blessed that way. There's a glimmer of larger things for DORNBOX in the near future.... but I'd hate to speculate or jinx them at this point as nothing is for certain... including the outcome if they happen as planned. In short, for now I'm taking it slow and putting every dime back into the company either in tooling or brand building, as was written in my BP.-Chris

[Dornbox]

Well in that case, I'll see you there. If the newbie tables aren't all full closer to the show I might pony up for one, it's a bit soon for me but Austin is about as close as it's gonna get to Tulsa. If I read the rules right, I don't actually have to be selling.

From my understanding you don't and if you don't have insurance (which isn't required either) , they ask... demand that you not sell on the showroom floor. There where a couple cats there this year with some awesome stuff... but that aren't currently selling either. -Chris -Torchy's for tacos on me if we're both there! Or for the brave we can go to the taco cart "Pedrnalas Nergos". The best tacos carnitas y salsa around!

[e-RICHIE]

Great question and underlying point. At this juncture, my goal is all about investment. I did start with a business plan (actually took a class at the local CC when I decided to start this biz) but have since lost it... or forgot about it. I'll revisit it someday. For now, I'm just trying to build a brand. With my shop on premiss and all of my tooling owned, I basically sink everything back into the company... which actually was part of my original BP. By next riding season, I do plan on getting real and laying everything out for the following year or years. Honestly though, everything with my company is so fluid or dynamic that it's hard to draw anything concrete for it. A lot of things in life happen serendipitously for me, I'm blessed that way. There's a glimmer of larger things for DORNBOX in the near future.... but I'd hate to speculate or jinx them at this point as nothing is for certain... including the outcome if they happen as planned. In short, for now I'm taking it slow and putting every dime back into the company either in tooling or brand building, as was written in my BP.-Chris

think about this for a second -
the investment in time and money in a show should show a return. with your being on the left side of the timeline, what will you tell
folks about your frames? enthusiasm may not be enough at the moment. whatever the amount those checks are for, would/could
the money get a better return by having an open house? there, folks have your undivided attention, and you have no distractions.
one on one, or on several as the case may be. folks would get to see, touch, and smell the entire dornbox environment, metal chips
and all atmo. i do hope the shows and expos you want to attend make you money, but i think it's a long shot. the gala thing is a tad
over rated and folks glom on for fear of missing a boat of sorts. you're a bright guy, a cat with military experience, and appear to be
a clear thinker. my points of view here are in the form of advice rather than a challenge to you.

[Curt Goodrich]

If I might pile onto Richard's previous post and dovetail with your response to my previous questions- develop the brand not the cult of personality. While it's true customers often need to connect personally with the builder there's no shortage of builders that people connect with. Passion is a given. Every builder I know has it. So find what makes your bikes yours. Then there's something to talk about. Also, experiment a lot. It's the only way to develop informed opinions.

[Dornbox]

think about this for a second -
the investment in time and money in a show should show a return. with your being on the left side of the timeline, what will you tell
folks about your frames? enthusiasm may not be enough at the moment. whatever the amount those checks are for, would/could
the money get a better return by having an open house? there, folks have your undivided attention, and you have no distractions.
one on one, or on several as the case may be. folks would get to see, touch, and smell the entire dornbox environment, metal chips
and all atmo. i do hope the shows and expos you want to attend make you money, but i think it's a long shot. the gala thing is a tad
over rated and folks glom on for fear of missing a boat of sorts. you're a bright guy, a cat with military experience, and appear to be
a clear thinker. my points of view here are in the form of advice rather than a challenge to you.

That is some excellent $h!t atmo. Originally I started in Maine out of a swank a$$ finished barn that I called my studio. As a self proclaimed master brewer, I was planing on having quarterly open houses with free beer and setting out free goodies and water for local riders on weekends ( I was on a major biking road) . Along those lines I was also planning on a boat load of gorilla marketing (pop up at local races etc). The move to RI took the wind out of those sales for this season and I totally lost track of those ideas.... next year! Thanks for reminding me Richard! That's where I wanted be.-Chris

[e-RICHIE]

That is some excellent $h!t atmo. Originally I started in Maine out of a swank a$$ finished barn that I called my studio. As a self proclaimed master brewer, I was planing on having quarterly open houses with free beer and setting out free goodies and water for local riders on weekends ( I was on a major biking road) . Along those lines I was also planning on a boat load of gorilla marketing (pop up at local races etc). The move to RI took the wind out of those sales for this season and I totally lost track of those ideas.... next year! Thanks for reminding me Richard! That's where I wanted be.-Chris

if you stand around long enough folks will walk up to you and put money in your hand.
but it won't happen this soon, or at a framebuilder show, or at a 'cross race atmo. build
frames to build frames, and when its your time, the queue will get longer. i don't wanna
see you selling your journeyman in 18 months to pay for a new french press that replaces
the one that just cracked.

put in a nickel get an opinion...

[Dornbox]

If I might pile onto Richard's previous post and dovetail with your response to my previous questions- develop the brand not the cult of personality. While it's true customers often need to connect personally with the builder there's no shortage of builders that people connect with. Passion is a given. Every builder I know has it. So find what makes your bikes yours. Then there's something to talk about. Also, experiment a lot. It's the only way to develop informed opinions.

Curt, There's a downside to selling frames early, "experimentation", it could cost you your reputation. On the plus side, "experimentation" costs money so you need to be selling something. I do try to tweak and play a little with everything I build for myself, my wife, and close friends... all are fully aware. But it seems a little daunting. It reminds me of architecture, only most of my experiments could be proven mathematically or through approaching various vendors about there products intended use. Also, most of the stuff I want to do costs money in tooling or machining time. Good point but where do you begin? -Chris

[Dornbox]

if you stand around long enough folks will walk up to you and put money in your hand.
but it won't happen this soon, or at a framebuilder show, or at a 'cross race atmo. build
frames to build frames, and when its your time, the queue will get longer. i don't wanna
see you selling your journeyman in 18 months to pay for a new french press that replaces
the one that just cracked.

put in a nickel get an opinion...

Seriously... how'd you know I cracked my french press a couple weeks ago? The good news, it was replaced with a espresso maker and I still have all of my tooling! Seriously for serious though, do you honestly believe that having a handful of your bikes at a race for people to see, admire, and just get exposed to your name doesn't do anything? Everything I know about business, which granted is only one semester (but I did have my own design firm before this), and my intuition says counter. Exposure at cross races didn't get you any traction? (5¢ more deposited)-Chris

[Curt Goodrich]

First off, at this point every frame is still an experiment. That's not a criticism. It just is. Yes, it's daunting but nobody said this was going to be easy. Experience takes time. Since you're focusing on race bikes then a race team is a natural fit. It shouldn't be too hard to find some willing individuals to buy frames at a bro deal. This will cover your out of pocket expenses and then you'll get more bikes out there ridden hard and put away wet. While simultaneously your brand will be getting exposure to the market that you're catering to. Build different geometries. Try different materials. It's really the only way to learn and to develop ones own style and brand. Otherwise one is only regurgitating what one sees in magazines. That often ends up leading to mediocrity. And yes, this means the business is will not be a profit center for quite awhile. It's an unrealistic expectation for it to be otherwise. When it comes to being a frame builder there's only one way to learn. That's by building frames. The more you build the better you'll get. The better you get the easier it is to sell the bikes.

[Craig Ryan]

Chris, it's nice to hear from you and I wish you luck. We all know framebuilding is a tough row to hoe, and the comments today have all reflected that. No one knows your place on the earth like you. What Curt says just above in post #37 rings very true. Being a stay at home dad is an awesome experience; I did that one for a couple of years, many years ago. In fact, it was when I was at a changing point in my own life and career. I hope to see you in Austin! Do you have a website, blog, or picture account? I seemed to have missed it if you do.
Craig

[Dornbox]

First off, at this point every frame is still an experiment. That's not a criticism. It just is. Yes, it's daunting but nobody said this was going to be easy. Experience takes time. Since you're focusing on race bikes then a race team is a natural fit. It shouldn't be too hard to find some willing individuals to buy frames at a bro deal. This will cover your out of pocket expenses and then you'll get more bikes out there ridden hard and put away wet. While simultaneously your brand will be getting exposure to the market that you're catering to. Build different geometries. Try different materials. It's really the only way to learn and to develop ones own style and brand. Otherwise one is only regurgitating what one sees in magazines. That often ends up leading to mediocrity. And yes, this means the business is will not be a profit center for quite awhile. It's an unrealistic expectation for it to be otherwise. When it comes to being a frame builder there's only one way to learn. That's by building frames. The more you build the better you'll get. The better you get the easier it is to sell the bikes.

Solid! And no criticism taken. Thats about the exact path I'm on. I do a lot of digging around for geometries on bikes I'm familiar with and make fairly calculated adjustments. I'm basically putting numbers to the things I've felt in the past. With the first ten, the builds where fairly straight forward and experimentation was minor (fillet brazing, silver brazing, Stainless filler, standard ER70 rod, etc. I did play around with various dropouts, custom seat stays, bending stock stays, flipping and bending stock stays, and varying tube thicknesses (wall and diameter). I have a few bikes in the queue now where I plan on expanding the style pallet a little and will start adding little more flair... granted most everything has been done but at some point once I figure it out, I can start putting my own spin on it. I've been really lucky and have gotten tons of help from peeps like Jeff Buchholz, Todd Ingermanson, Mike Flanagan, Maietta, The Boys at Circle A and more... including the Collective. I'm definitely trying to get something from each build and sometime vicariously through others.-Chris

[Dornbox]

Chris, it's nice to hear from you and I wish you luck. We all know framebuilding is a tough row to hoe, and the comments today have all reflected that. No one knows your place on the earth like you. What Curt says just above in post #37 rings very true. Being a stay at home dad is an awesome experience; I did that one for a couple of years, many years ago. In fact, it was when I was at a changing point in my own life and career. I hope to see you in Austin! Do you have a website, blog, or picture account? I seemed to have missed it if you do.
Craig

Craig, Thanks for the luck! I knew the road would be bumpy. I can clearly recall standing in Toby Stanton's shop when I first met Zank... He was like, "nice to meet you... what makes you think you can be a successful builder". I didn't think he was being rude... just honest.

It's a tough mix trying to be a father when I have a set of tubes sitting in the shop. At the end of the day though, I try to make sure I'm working on being a better father than a better bike builder. Bikes are easier to fix than kids, or grown men for that matter. www.dornboxbikes.com and Friday night lights has some images. As for the blog, keeping on top of SO for the day has taken most of my time. I'm not sure I'm ready to commit to a blog. Although I do have a DORNBOX Facebook page I keep going with short shouts. Nice shop by the way! Did you glass your own soak tank and where do you get the chems from? Thanks! -Chris!