Kirk Frameworks

[nahtnoj]

Hmm, maybe do the TT and stays in green, everything else white? It might wind up looking top-heavy.

[Dave Kirk]

And now for something completely different -

Like many builders I take photos of my work to share with customers and my 'studio' photos have been both admired and openly mocked so I thought the least I could do is show how those photos are taken.

FWIW I don't really like taking photos - or at least I should say that I don't consider myself to be an enthusiast. I got into taking photos just for the business. I don't know much about taking photos or about how the camera works and whenever I talk to folks who know what the hell they are talking about I feel like a putz. All that said the photos don't come out 1/2 bad.

I have a 'studio' set up in my basement. It's comprised of a stand to hold the frameset or complete bike, a back drop, and 3 lights with diffusers. The stand is made with scrap lumber and nothing special at all and the frameset holder is a piece of bent metal plate with fake axles to hold the work securely. The frameset stand rotates to make it easier to get a good angle on the subject.

Behind the work is a huge piece of photo back drop paper I got at a local camera shop. It' 9' wide and much longer than I would ever need. It's a very heavy and stiff paper and I have it stapled to the wall behind it and to the stand and allow it to have a curve so there are no distracting corners in the background of the shot. The roll of paper was something like $60 which seems cheap. I've been using the same sheet for many years.

For lights I have 3 sets of halogen shop lights like you find at the hardware store. I have two on the floor and one mounted on the ceiling to give as even a lighting as I can get. I looked at 'real' photography lighting and the cost was huge and I just could stomach it. The shop lights work fairly well as long at there is a diffuser between the light and the subject. This takes away much of the glare and shine. It's not perfect but it's pretty good and really cheap.

The camera, a Nikon D70, is set up on a tripod in front of the subject and I use a wireless remote to snap the photos so that I don't wiggle the camera. I set the camera on "manual" and set the exposure using a gray photo card to judge the light. This is a new thing for me and it's help cut down the time needed to get good shots.

So it is just that simple. Hang the paper behind the stand and throw lots diffused light at it and life is good.

I think of each of my bikes as a resume showing what I'm capable of at any given time and because of this want my work to be shown in the best possible light (pun intended). If I do great work and show it with below average photos one can assume the work is below average too. If everyone could see the work with their own two eyes out in the sun this would be a non-issue but sense we are a webbernet based deal that isn't possible.

If anyone has any questions about setting up a studio and you think I can help let me know. Like I said I don't consider myself to be skilled at this but do something enough times and it's bound to get better and easier.

FWIW - it's hard to take a good photo of the photo studio - oh the irony.

Thanks for looking.

dave

[ghsmith54]

Pretty nice setup for taking pictures. Like you, I enjoy taking pictures and have taken some decent ones but I think of myself more as a "person who takes pictures" rather than as a "photographer" - the distinction being that I don't have the foggiest idea of what the hell I'm doing :D I have a good sense of composition and can frame a shot but when I talk to someone a photographer and they start talking f-stops, focal lengths, saturation, etc., I go glassy eyed pretty quick.

[steve garro]

that photo studio is a thing of beauty! A quick question for you: how about ATB's? I know you raced during the "golden era" so why don't we see more of them coming out of your shop? - Garro.

[Dave Kirk]

Pretty nice setup for taking pictures. Like you, I enjoy taking pictures and have taken some decent ones but I think of myself more as a "person who takes pictures" rather than as a "photographer" - the distinction being that I don't have the foggiest idea of what the hell I'm doing :D I have a good sense of composition and can frame a shot but when I talk to someone a photographer and they start talking f-stops, focal lengths, saturation, etc., I go glassy eyed pretty quick.

I hear you. I was at our local photo shop a few weeks back to get my camera cleaned and was asking for advice to up my game. That might have been a mistake. The very helpful guy started throwing out terms that I recognized but did not understand and asking lots of questions about my settings and I went blank. After a few minutes he realized I was a hack and dumbed it down for me and I was able to pick up a few very basic tips. He was very cool and cut me enough slack that I didn't walk out of their feeling as stupid as I might have otherwise.

Like you I find that I enjoy the composure part of the process but the tech part doesn't hold my interest.

dave

[Dave Kirk]

that photo studio is a thing of beauty! A quick question for you: how about ATB's? I know you raced during the "golden era" so why don't we see more of them coming out of your shop? - Garro.

Hey,

Thanks. I don't know about beautiful - it's certainly functional. I just wanted to show that you don't need anything fancy or expensive to take reasonable photos. I suspect that the biggest obstacle for most builders might be having the space to set something up. Before I had this current set up I had a temporary one with the paper on a roll up on the ceiling and would unroll it to take photos and then roll it back up to get it out of the way and to keep the cats from trying to climb it. It worked very well and added just a few minutes to the process. Either way - I think it's worth it. Customers love getting studio shots of their bikes.

You are correct - back in the day I raced offroad for a living (a very meager one) and over the years I've built countless mountain bikes. For some reason when I set up Kirk frameworks I didn't show/sell/offer any MTBs and that has stuck. I am for the most part fine that that. I know that you can't 'specialize' in all type of bikes and there are builders. like yourself, that do such a good job that I don't know that I would have anything special to offer. I do have the hankering to build myself something new for spring though and i'm thinking 26R, 29F, with fillets all round. We'll see - it will depend on how good the snow is this winter. Good snow means little free time :)

Thanks again,

dave

[Mike748]

Dave, love that Lotus Cortina. I had the chance to buy one years ago but didn't realize what a great opportunity it was and missed out. One of my professors at Va Tech had a pair of them, along with a huge collection of weird British cars (Allard J2 etc). I always liked Cortinas... my grandparents in Holland had a mkI and mkII and we had a mkII here in the early 70's. I also almost bought a LHD mkII. convertible when I lived in Virginia. That was a cool car. I also lusted after Elans for many years... and E-types, and Morgans.

Unfortunately Lotus prices and my means diverged at some point and I ended up with a Triumph, then a Land Rover series II, and a Bugeye before I swore off English cars and settled on the German P-car brand. Much to be said for English beer and German cars rather than the other way around.

My across the street neighbor has an Elise and everytime I see it (it sits outside, so that is frequently) I think about maybe looking for one... but then that might eat into the funds I have set aside for my Kirk frame! Besides the garage is full of P-cars. But they could be sold.

[steve garro]

. I do have the hankering to build myself something new for spring though and i'm thinking 26R, 29F, with fillets all round.

you let me know when that is & i'll send you all needed tubes. I have them in stock. - Garro.

[Dave Kirk]

Dave, love that Lotus Cortina. I had the chance to buy one years ago but didn't realize what a great opportunity it was and missed out. One of my professors at Va Tech had a pair of them, along with a huge collection of weird British cars (Allard J2 etc). I always liked Cortinas... my grandparents in Holland had a mkI and mkII and we had a mkII here in the early 70's. I also almost bought a LHD mkII. convertible when I lived in Virginia. That was a cool car. I also lusted after Elans for many years... and E-types, and Morgans.

Unfortunately Lotus prices and my means diverged at some point and I ended up with a Triumph, then a Land Rover series II, and a Bugeye before I swore off English cars and settled on the German P-car brand. Much to be said for English beer and German cars rather than the other way around.

My across the street neighbor has an Elise and everytime I see it (it sits outside, so that is frequently) I think about maybe looking for one... but then that might eat into the funds I have set aside for my Kirk frame! Besides the garage is full of P-cars. But they could be sold.

Hey Mike,

It's funny about the Cortina. I bought it cheap and it needed work and then after a number of years I had restored it to a very nice driver - not show quality but could have gone what way with some more time/work/money. The ironic thing was that the car had become so precious that I enjoyed it less and fretted about it more. The rarity and value had taken the fun out of it for me. So I decided to sell it and as able to sell if for 3 times what I paid for it originally. The values has gone through the roof. With that money freed up I was able to buy a Seven and work on it and sell if for much than I bought it for and then finally buy the Elise - which is what I originally wanted but could never afford. The costs of the other cars raising the the falling price on Elises was good to me. The cool thing about the Elise is that it's reliable and modern and not precious in any way to me. I use it hard and put it away wet and have a ball with it.

Are you a Porsche guy?

dave

[Dave Kirk]

you let me know when that is & i'll send you all needed tubes. I have them in stock. - Garro.

Cool - I'll take you up on that after NAHBS. My free time to build myself anything will not come around until after the show.

BTW - what size seat tube do you use and what size post do you stick in it?

dave

[Mike748]

Dave, I evolved into a Porsche guy. I always like English cars, my older brother like Porsches. Then one day in college a friend in the sports car club let me drive his '70 911T. Then I was hooked and knew I wanted one. It took 10 years and a series of more affordable but still interesting cars before I could buy one in 1994 - a '74 911S which I've had for 16 years now and done everything with, daily driver, autocrosser, cross country trips. Then another friend offered me a deal on his '71 911T 2 years later. Then last year another friend offered us her '74 914 2.0, so now the garage is full. I repainted (myself in the garage) and fixed up both 911's. The 911T's paint came out too good and became a garage queen. Its value has increased to the point I don't like driving it in minivan-cellphone mom Texas traffic anymore. I'll probably sell it one day to help pay for my daughter's education, but I really like it. I autocrossed the 914 a couple of times this year. Its a hoot to drive... like a fast (relative term) pizza box.

When I get to the top of your list (and Joe Bell's) I think I want the bike painted to match the 914 - light metallic blue. Although something more Lotus like English white with green panels or vice versa is appealing too. JPS colors are great on a Europa but too flashy for me on a bike.

I should go drive an Elise - there are two for sale locally - to see what I'm missing out on. Do they have a/c? It gets hot here.

[Dave Kirk]

Dave, I evolved into a Porsche guy. I always like English cars, my older brother like Porsches. Then one day in college a friend in the sports car club let me drive his '70 911T. Then I was hooked and knew I wanted one. It took 10 years and a series of more affordable but still interesting cars before I could buy one in 1994 - a '74 911S which I've had for 16 years now and done everything with, daily driver, autocrosser, cross country trips. Then another friend offered me a deal on his '71 911T 2 years later. Then last year another friend offered us her '74 914 2.0, so now the garage is full. I repainted (myself in the garage) and fixed up both 911's. The 911T's paint came out too good and became a garage queen. Its value has increased to the point I don't like driving it in minivan-cellphone mom Texas traffic anymore. I'll probably sell it one day to help pay for my daughter's education, but I really like it. I autocrossed the 914 a couple of times this year. Its a hoot to drive... like a fast (relative term) pizza box.

When I get to the top of your list (and Joe Bell's) I think I want the bike painted to match the 914 - light metallic blue. Although something more Lotus like English white with green panels or vice versa is appealing too. JPS colors are great on a Europa but too flashy for me on a bike.

I should go drive an Elise - there are two for sale locally - to see what I'm missing out on. Do they have a/c? It gets hot here.

Hey Mike,

Very cool stuff on the cars.

I like the idea of painting your bike to match the 914. I've thought of painting my bike to match the orange Elise - funny aside - when I lean the bike against my car the bike is taller.

Yes the Elises have AC and it works pretty well. Heat is more important here and thank goodness that also works very well.

Dave

[steve garro]

Cool - I'll take you up on that after NAHBS. My free time to build myself anything will not come around until after the show.

BTW - what size seat tube do you use and what size post do you stick in it?

dave

28.6/27.2 - I built some big ones with 1.25" ST's, but they were so stiff.......one flexed so little it broke a chainstay right in the middle...something has to give......the seat tube sleeve stiffens them up plenty. I use a ST sleeve that bumps up the OD to 1.25" & it's 4" long. plenty stiff. I really don't get the 1.25" ST for steel bikes, a little overkill, IMO. measured flex is good. too stiff is bad. Too thin is bad too, though....... - Garro.

[Dave Kirk]

28.6/27.2 - I built some big ones with 1.25" ST's, but they were so stiff.......one flexed so little it broke a chainstay right in the middle...something has to give......the seat tube sleeve stiffens them up plenty. I use a ST sleeve that bumps up the OD to 1.25" & it's 4" long. plenty stiff. I really don't get the 1.25" ST for steel bikes, a little overkill, IMO. measured flex is good. too stiff is bad. Too thin is bad too, though....... - Garro.

Cool. I hear you. It's really easy to make a bike stiff. It's harder to make it the right stiffness for the job and to not build in a weak link that will bite your ass down the road. But be careful - don't go saying that measured flex is a good thing. It will get you in trouble with the stiffer is cooler crowd and you will be mocked.

I'm getting excited to build this thing. I'll be in touch. I haven't had a new MTB is 15 years - it's time.

dave

[steve garro]

Cool. I hear you. It's really easy to make a bike stiff. It's harder to make it the right stiffness for the job and to not build in a weak link that will bite your ass down the road. But be careful - don't go saying that measured flex is a good thing. It will get you in trouble with the stiffer is cooler crowd and you will be mocked.

I'm getting excited to build this thing. I'll be in touch. I haven't had a new MTB is 15 years - it's time.

dave

those stiffer is better bike guys can ridicule me all the way to the chiropractor.........if they can still drive with all the hand numbness.........I may just stick some tubes in the mail next time I reach critical mass on shipping. - Garro.

[grscha]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. It's been fascinating reading.

Any thoughts on engineering a steel frame to respond to the uneven forces that pedaling produces? I was reading about the carbon Pinarello Dogma and its asymmetrical design and wondered if, at least conceptually, you'd ever considered something similar with a steel frame. To clarify, I mean addressing the same problem (if it is a problem) but using a not necessarily similar solution.

Regards,
Greg

[Dave Kirk]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. It's been fascinating reading.

Any thoughts on engineering a steel frame to respond to the uneven forces that pedaling produces? I was reading about the carbon Pinarello Dogma and its asymmetrical design and wondered if, at least conceptually, you'd ever considered something similar with a steel frame. To clarify, I mean addressing the same problem (if it is a problem) but using a not necessarily similar solution.

Regards,
Greg

Yo Greg,

Thanks for the question. For as long as I can remember builders have been experimenting with designs to take in account the asymmetry of the drivetrain and the asymmetric forces they impart on the bike. I can think of a number of tube designs that were meant to deal with the same thing - Columbus MS comes to mind. In the end I'm not sure that it's anything that needs to be addressed.

I don't recall the numbers as it was so long ago but I did a good bit of bench testing of frame flex resulting from chain tension and the asymmetry from the drivetrain being on one side of the bike back when I was the R&D guy at Serotta. I set up a test with a crank/pedals stuck in the bike and loaded each pedal while in the 2 o'clock position, applied force the the pedal then and measured lateral deflection at the BB. Like I said I don't recall the numbers but I recall that the difference was very small. So small that I decided at that time that going down that road was a marketing exercise and not an engineering exercise.

There was an interesting side effect thing going on that confused me during the test. I was getting different results on the right/left pedals and expected it was the frame - that is what we were told would happen. It turns out it was flex in the drivetrain itself. When the load was applied to the right pedal/crank the load goes straight through the pedal and crank into the chain........ a nice short load path. But when you apply the load to the left side it has a much longer path, and a few interfaces, to take to get to the chain. So the pedal moved further down at a given load showing that the BB spindle was twisting and loading up. This was originally done with an old school tapered spindle BB so I switched to an oversize Octalink deal to see how it differed. It indeed twisted less and the left pedal had a more immediate effect on the chain. It wasn't a huge difference but there was a difference that was easy to measure.

So in the end, to directly address your question. I don't feel that there is any practical advantage to be had by designing the frame in an asymmetric way to deal with drivetrain loads. A good pair of stiff chainstays and life is good.

Thanks again,

dave

[Dave Kirk]

Hey,

Happy Thanksgiving and thanks for looking in. The lovely Karin has some time off from her day job and was able to update the photo gallery page on my site with 10 new bikes. If you are working off eating too much food and need to sit around doing nothing take a few minutes and check out the new bikes.

Stay well,

Dave

Kirk Frameworks Photo Gallery

[Curt Goodrich]

Dave,

I was looking on your website but can't find this info. I'm assuming your new drop outs aren't stainless because it looks like they're brass brazed. But I seem to remember there was talk of making some in stainless. Is that going to happen? Or am I mistaken? Also, do you have any other new frame building supplies in the works?

[Dave Kirk]

Dave,

I was looking on your website but can't find this info. I'm assuming your new drop outs aren't stainless because it looks like they're brass brazed. But I seem to remember there was talk of making some in stainless. Is that going to happen? Or am I mistaken? Also, do you have any other new frame building supplies in the works?

Hey Curt,

You are correct - the current Triple F's are not stainless, they are 4130. I'm not a big stainless guy myself but if someone wanted some I'm sure I could have some cut the next time a run is being done. If you are anyone else wants stainless Triple F's just let me know.

I do have some other stuff in the works - the first thing will be matching Triple F front drops and then I have some lug ideas I'm working on. But I won't really be talking about details until I'm sure I can deliver. But they should be cool parts and will be distinctly different and if I do my homework should improve on existing designs.

Thanks for asking.

Dave