The Independent Framebuilders Guild

[YiPsan]

Mike,

I am not a member, but vaguely recall getting some info during San Diego bike show. Looks like most of the pictures on the site is from SD bike show and Rocky Mountain show and I think Brian and Carol Johnson are working together on the show thing.

So, not sure what is happening there. See you in a few weeks!

Cheers,

Yo, Renold! I see one of your bikes on their website. Are you in the guild? What's the story?

[bgcycles]

Posted by Bruce Gordon for Brian Baylis:

Gentlemen:

No need to speculate about anything. You can just ask me, since I am the only source of the factual and true answers to questions regarding the Independent Framebuilders Guild and or the San Diego Custom Bicycle Show. Your conversation was brought to my attention by some of my friends. I figured you guys wanted to know the facts of the situation since you were talking about it, so here is the real info.

The Independent Framebuilders Guild was not a "reaction" to anything other than recognition of some basic needs of framebuilders. Needs of all framebuilders, not just a few. We're all free to do as we choose; my personal preference is to work for the benefit of those who need it most and I prefer to do so in an unbiased and open manner. I have no problem with other approaches; some may not be what I would participate in and others may not work for me. The only thing that works for me is when all people are given equal status as a basic human being and everyone treats the others with a genuine mutual respect. This is the purpose of the IFG.

I recognize the purpose of the Collective for example, and I even agree with the concept. But the projects slated for the IFG have to do with working with the entire framebuilding community to up our game and recognition as craftsmen amongst the general public. I feel that the magnitude of the projects we would undertake will require co-operation amongst the entire framebuilding faction in order to be successful. Over the years I have heard talk of recording the history of American Framebuilding; but it's obvious that no one person or even a small group can pull this off; and yet it needs to be done, and done fairly soon. I also feel that a real pro level and comprehensive framebuilders manual should be produced. I would like to see contributions and neat tricks from America's top builders included in this publication. Again, a group effort to contribute to the future of the craft. Buying power and health insurance and so on are other issues that we can address if there is a neutral group of builders who want to see these things happen.

So the IFG isn't a copy of anything. Perhaps if one wants to make a comparison, we would have to go with opposites.

Sure, there is always only one "original" anything. I was there from the very beginning of NAHBS and an avid supporter of the show and the concept. I think moving it around is a great idea; but since I've been working on the SDCBS as a solo act (a reversal role from my previous position of doing my best to stay in the background and let the other two guys put on the show that they created and conceived from the beginning. I only agreed to "help" them with the project). It's no picnic putting on a show. I can't imagine moving an operation like this around the country. My hat is off to Don, because it's a real tough gig and not many people are suited for it.

But here's the deal. The San Diego show again was not a copy of anything and we were not the first to feel the need for a annual regional framebuilder oriented event. The originators of the show felt a bit left out and insignificant after attending NAHBS because they are "small fish" so to speak. The thing is, the "small fish" are the ones who really need the shows and other opportunities to get a foothold in the business. They felt that the shows worked for people like myself and Richard and so on; but there wasn't much for the new guys. THAT is why they decided to kick down and try to put something together locally. The expense and time involved in NAHBS was too much for the little guys getting started and so on. Like I said, I only agreed to help out in the beginning.

Time has passed. Neither one of the originators is in a position to put in the time and effort to keep the show going. Therefore, it was my choice to either take on the show or let it go. I felt the need is still there and I have actually began to enjoy the show promoter role. I have much more direct ideas on what I would like to see and I'm not hesitant to make decisions. The committee approach was in fact a huge handicap during the first 2 shows. Now that I own the show, I can make all decisions and take action on the spot. Before we had to get together for meetings and it was a very slow and clumsy method. The new venue for the show is making it much easier to put on a quality show in a really nice setting in downtown San Diego right in between the Gaslamp Quarter and Little Italy, where the 3000 plus registered riders in the San Diego Gran Fondo will be during the same weekend. KILLER!

It has been my pleasure to join you people for a few minutes here in the Salon, albeit not directly, in order to answer your questions. In the future you can just ask me directly what is going on on my end and I will always answer. There is nothing to hide about what I'm doing or why. Sometimes you just have to accept that there are persons who do things for other people and consider those contributions to society and ones colleagues as their duty to humanity and the good of the industry.

The IFG is not something I personally need. I see the need, as many others do. The difference is that I'm willing to give up some of my personal time in order to get the ball rolling. The IFG will only come into being if there are lots of other builders who support the organization. Generally people react with suspicion, largely due to to the activities of groups that may appear similar or are clearly misdirected. I pulled the plug on the original effort because the other parties I was working with ended up having different intentions than I had for the organization. A restart may happen after I square away the show and put a cap on my 3 year construction project, which forced me into a building contractor role for the past 2 years. I WANT and NEED to get back to framebuilding. This construction crap is for the birds! I'm about 10 days from final inspection, and I can hardly wait to be back to work and also be able to focus on the show. This has been the most difficult 2 years of my life.

Brian Baylis
brianbaylis@juno.com

[e-RICHIE]

what does this text mean atmo?
it reads as if it will only work if all have the same intentions as the org's originator.
bruce?

The IFG will only come into being if there are lots of other builders who support the organization. <snip> I pulled the plug on the original effort because the other parties I was working with ended up having different intentions than I had for the organization.

[Dave Anderson]

Brian & Bruce,

Thank you for your explanation.

I have a question, though, in light of your last paragraph......especially where you say: " ...a restart may happen after I square away the show...". Is the the IFG currently an ongoing and growing concern? or is it on a partial or permanent hiatis?

Thanks!

Dave

[bgcycles]

what does this text mean atmo?
it reads as if it will only work if all have the same intentions as the org's originator.
bruce?

As usual - I cannot understand Richard's post.
I simply posted the message for my friend Brian.
Please address all questions to Brian at brianbaylis@juno.com

Regards,
Bruce Gordon
Bruce Gordon Cycles | Home page
Bruce Gordon Cycles

[e-RICHIE]

i thought my question was clear - the text seemed ambiguous and i was asking it it was intentional. the org was started, and then
the org was put on hiatus because the other folks' intentions conflicted with his (or yours - or whoever is the writer there...)?

As usual - I cannot understand Richard's post.
I simply posted the message for my friend Brian.
Please address all questions to Brian at brianbaylis@juno.com

Regards,
Bruce Gordon
Bruce Gordon Cycles | Home page
Bruce Gordon Cycles

[bgcycles]

Please address all questions to Brian at brianbaylis@juno.com

Regards,
Bruce

[e-RICHIE]

Please address all questions to Brian at brianbaylis@juno.com

Regards,
Bruce

i have a question - it's your post; why are you the messenger atmo?
and, no - i don't have an ulterior motive in asking.
baylis is registered on V and can post.
so why did you do it?

[bgcycles]

I searched the members.
Brian does not appear to be a member.

Please address all questions to Brian at brianbaylis@juno.com

Regards,
Bruce

[e-RICHIE]

I searched the members.
Brian does not appear to be a member.

i believe it's in the B section atmo -
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum.../brian-baylis/

[Dave Anderson]

FYI......I posted my question above directly to Brian as requested and received the following response, which I was asked to post here. Please note:

"Dave,

Thanks for writing and coming to the source of direct information. The speculating and other counterproductive comments are of no use in getting an organization going. It did not help when I discovered that the other two involved with the forming of the IFG had a beef with Richard. I had to cut ties with them for that reason. Yes, Richard and I don't really get along; for not other reason than we are pretty much opposites in philosophy. I personally have no problem with the differences between us; but Richard's behavior clearly indicates is threatened by my very being in some way. Nothing I can do for Richard about that particular problem.

So the hiatus was primarily to cut ties with those people and start fresh with framebuilders who want to get something real accomplished. The other people were not actually framebuilders and had some other things on their mind.So yes, I cut those people off. I would do the same to anyone who doesn't have the best interests of framebuilders and building at heart. There is already way too much of this crap out there, thanks to lots of people who spend more time on the Internet than at the workbench. Friction between various people is childish from the get go, and I can't stop others from engaging in it. But I will not add to it nor participate in childsplay. I have serious work to do, lots of people who depend on me to stand ground on various issues, and not cower in the face of the unwarranted opposition.

I would welcome your support when the time comes and I hope you see the same basic needs for framebuilders as I do. Hopefully you are not afraid to put in some time in order to benefit all builder as well as yourself.

Thanks for your note. I prefer to speak directly to people. The various types of monkey business and other tricks of the forums is not for me. Everyone should be able to speak freely, own their words, and do it respectfully in public. Feel free to post my reply to the forum, since I don't have time for any more of that stuff than I already have.

Brian Baylis

[e-RICHIE]

dave - i don't know anything about IFG, nor about a beef two cats had (with me), or even brian's philosophy as mentioned below. we're just two guys who met in 1976 or so. there's no back story and it's never been any different. and ps i am posting this for myself, as myself.

FYI......I posted my question above directly to Brian as requested and received the following response, which I was asked to post here. Please note:

"Dave,

Thanks for writing and coming to the source of direct information. The speculating and other counterproductive comments are of no use in getting an organization going. It did not help when I discovered that the other two involved with the forming of the IFG had a beef with Richard. I had to cut ties with them for that reason. Yes, Richard and I don't really get along; for not other reason than we are pretty much opposites in philosophy. I personally have no problem with the differences between us; but Richard's behavior clearly indicates is threatened by my very being in some way. Nothing I can do for Richard about that particular problem.

So the hiatus was primarily to cut ties with those people and start fresh with framebuilders who want to get something real accomplished. The other people were not actually framebuilders and had some other things on their mind.So yes, I cut those people off. I would do the same to anyone who doesn't have the best interests of framebuilders and building at heart. There is already way too much of this crap out there, thanks to lots of people who spend more time on the Internet than at the workbench. Friction between various people is childish from the get go, and I can't stop others from engaging in it. But I will not add to it nor participate in childsplay. I have serious work to do, lots of people who depend on me to stand ground on various issues, and not cower in the face of the unwarranted opposition.

I would welcome your support when the time comes and I hope you see the same basic needs for framebuilders as I do. Hopefully you are not afraid to put in some time in order to benefit all builder as well as yourself.

Thanks for your note. I prefer to speak directly to people. The various types of monkey business and other tricks of the forums is not for me. Everyone should be able to speak freely, own their words, and do it respectfully in public. Feel free to post my reply to the forum, since I don't have time for any more of that stuff than I already have.

Brian Baylis

[Archibald]

.....

[hampco]

.....

Nice skorts!

[bellman]

That was a good fight Arch, thanks.

[bellman]

Nice skorts!

those must be the white shoe equivilent of the MMA world

[Dazza]

a fascinating bit of text

this part might answer Richard's question "The other people were not actually framebuilders and had some other things on their mind.So yes, I cut those people off."

' I have serious work to do, lots of people who depend on me to stand ground on various issues, and not cower in the face of the unwarranted opposition.'

My question is who and where are the faces of this unwarranted opposition?

'Everyone should be able to speak freely, own their words, and do it respectfully in public.'

This is a good forum for speaking freely and with respect and it is the only one I look at daily beside the frame builders list which I only look at on occasion.

FYI......I posted my question above directly to Brian as requested and received the following response, which I was asked to post here. Please note:

"Dave,

Thanks for writing and coming to the source of direct information. The speculating and other counterproductive comments are of no use in getting an organization going. It did not help when I discovered that the other two involved with the forming of the IFG had a beef with Richard. I had to cut ties with them for that reason. Yes, Richard and I don't really get along; for not other reason than we are pretty much opposites in philosophy. I personally have no problem with the differences between us; but Richard's behavior clearly indicates is threatened by my very being in some way. Nothing I can do for Richard about that particular problem.

So the hiatus was primarily to cut ties with those people and start fresh with framebuilders who want to get something real accomplished. I would do the same to anyone who doesn't have the best interests of framebuilders and building at heart. There is already way too much of this crap out there, thanks to lots of people who spend more time on the Internet than at the workbench. Friction between various people is childish from the get go, and I can't stop others from engaging in it. But I will not add to it nor participate in childsplay. I have serious work to do, lots of people who depend on me to stand ground on various issues, and not cower in the face of the unwarranted opposition.

I would welcome your support when the time comes and I hope you see the same basic needs for framebuilders as I do. Hopefully you are not afraid to put in some time in order to benefit all builder as well as yourself.

Thanks for your note. I prefer to speak directly to people. The various types of monkey business and other tricks of the forums is not for me. Everyone should be able to speak freely, own their words, and do it respectfully in public. Feel free to post my reply to the forum, since I don't have time for any more of that stuff than I already have.

Brian Baylis

[EricKeller]

I see a need for some sort of group that is not quite as exclusive as TFC. The truth is that there are plenty of people building frames that are quite good, and TFC wouldn't have them at this point. On the other hand, there are people that go to school or snooker an established framebuilder into helping them build a frame, get a nice paint job on it and then they are in business. And that has the potential to screw all of us that don't really have a large body of work under our own name.

I got myself in the middle of a disagreement between a builder and a customer. The builder made some mistakes and there were some communications problems and the result was that the customer was running around the internet slamming him wherever he could. I swear he had an automated search for the builder's name. I asked him if he really wanted to put the builder out of business. He said he didn't, but he wanted to know what we were going to do as a community about people that build bikes when they don't know if the bike is suitable for its designated purpose. I said I would see if there was anything I could do, but I'm really at a loss. I wish there had been someone back in the '70s that had told me I wasn't ready to sell bikes yet. Now that I've decided to get back into it, I've probably been too cautious. And meanwhile I see the unprepared rushing into framebuilding like there's nothing to it.

So is there going to be an organization that will take on these responsibilities? Individual framebuilders talking to some of the people just starting to build frames is not enough in some cases. Maybe it will all end with the CPSC adopting rules like those that have been adopted in Europe, which really would be a shame. Better to police ourselves.

[edoz]

What are these European rules you speak of?

[EricKeller]

basically first article testing and they are rather extreme. They are CEN standards.