Stainless lugs

[Undies]

Keen to start a stainless lugged frame but need to do some research first as i understand stainless isn't a walk in the park
Any suggestions on reading material, info etc

Cheers

[e-RICHIE]

Keen to start a stainless lugged frame but need to do some research first as i understand stainless isn't a walk in the park
Any suggestions on reading material, info etc

Cheers

What is your experience to date with non-stainless parts atmo?

[Undies]

Have built 8 fillet brazed frames and 1 non stainless lugged frame non of which have failed (even with 100kg sitting on them)

[e-RICHIE]

Have built 8 fillet brazed frames and 1 non stainless lugged frame non of which have failed (even with 100kg sitting on them)

I would wait until you have doubled or tripled these numbers. Stainless is an aesthetic that draws
folks in, often for questionable reasons. I say that with all the love and support I can muster atmo

[Undies]

but they make such a beautiful bike

[Dancingbear]

Are you the "client" and the builder? Not saying Mr. Sachs is off base with the advice of more experience first, ( especially since most of your work was not lugged) but speaking as a guy who regularly builds unusual stuff, sometimes you just have to scratch an itch.

[Undies]

Yep client and builder.
Like i said my original thread i am starting to research the pit falls, guess you got to start somewhere

[e-RICHIE]

Yep client and builder.
Like i said my original thread i am starting to research the pit falls, guess you got to start somewhere

I think the pitfalls are rooted in that with no experience brazing frames with lugs, you're at a disadvantage regarding sensibility, experience, and hand-eye coordination. If you haven't gone through a practice cycle or learning curve of any sort, these will just be words, and discouraging ones at that. No one can prepare you for the pitfalls if you are so new to it. So I return to my original bias, which is that of folks looking at stainless (that is, shiny stuff) want to incorporate it into a build if for no other reason than it ramps up the aesthetic in their eye. As far a learning goes, heck - as far as brazing and framebuilding go, that's a wee bit poorly thought out. Do you want to improve, and to be a better framebuilder, or do you just want to tickle a fancy/scratch an itch? You're asking here leads me to think you want advice and some tips. My point of view is that you should concentrate on making a frame. Then making frames. Then more. And then once your intuition is getting tuned, take a gamble and make something different. But until that point, to learn, continue to do the same thing over and over atmo.

[Andrew R Stewart]

Some comments- Do a lot of practice. First with non SS "lugs" to get the flow thing. Then advance to small bits of SS to find out the different color and heating thing. Watch the flux very carefully. Try a few full lugged sample joints and watch the flux end condition. I have found that the flux doesn't lie as far as heat/time goes. Cut open your practice for full flow. And watch the flux. Andy.

[veryredbike]

Same advice for socketed dropouts/fork ends?

I got a pair of Dazza's drops for the next bike down the line in stainless (sweating socketed drops is one of the few things I feel pretty confident about)... but I've also gotten over my head more than once in the last couple of weeks, so yeah... if I should put those in a drawer, that's good to know.

Man, I may need to win the lottery or something.

[Doug Fattic]

Of course it is fair to ask what are the challenges in making a frame with shiny stainless steel lugs. My day job is to teach how to braze and students often want to know if they can use ss lugs in class. And the simple answer is no because it is too difficult for them to do. And this would be after explanations and demonstrations and practice with an instructor watching every move to guide and correct and stop them immediately if something starts to go wrong. Stainless has a narrow heat working window. It requires higher heat, doesn't transfer heat as well (requiring a more precise flame pattern) and if one goes over the limit the surface contaminates and you have to start over (it is practically impossible to pull tubes apart again). In addition it requires more scrupulous cleaning that is time limited. In other words if you wait too long between the clean and the braze, silver won't flow. It just can't tolerate brazing mistakes like regular steel can.

Almost all beginners have similar problematic brazing characteristics including not being able to operate both hands independently of each other most often resulting in a hot spot. It is also rare that they can move the torch evenly over the area they are brazing. They almost always get into a "groove" leaving some places too hot while others too cold. The concept seems very simple but few can do it at first. A good brazer doesn't have to think about how far his flame is from the joint (it remains constant), how fast he is moving, the angle the flame, etc, he can just react instinctively to the heat indicators. When one can move accurately without thinking about their motions is when they are ready to braze stainless steel

Stainless steel dropouts are much easier to do because the brazing area is limited. Few students have trouble with either plug or socket stainless dropouts.

[crookedcycle]

For what its worth, it can be done, even by a newbie.. I, admittedly very foolishly, decided that when I wanted to build my own frame, I would use stainless lugs, stainless drop outs etc. Not the best of choices to be sure. First problem, was learning how to polish them. Second problem, was that (best guess here) in the process of polishing the lugs, they heated up and expanded a touch.. led to some rather large gaps when the frame was fitted together, and led to the need for some heat and plier crimping.. good bye shiny finish... hello file and second round of polishing. The third problem was the seat tube cluster, and painting /taping around the contact points... ugh. My friend and I started building our bikes at the same time... on two home made jigs (unistrut main triangle, 80/20 rear triangle). Mine was geared, stainless steel drop outs, stainless steel lugs, his was all steel, track dropouts. Bottom line, he finished two bikes in the time it took me to do one. The only other thing I can say is Harris black flux for sure. Started out with the Harris safety silv white, and it was a nightmare, attributable Im sure to my poor skills, but still a nightmare. Tried the black flux, much, MUCH better results. All that said, I did finish the bike, it hasn't killed me yet(putting about 100 miles a week on it), and was so proud of myself, got a silly sticker with my name on it for the down tube..

[afwalker]

Would doing a Fillet-pro silver brazed stainless tube frame be an option?
Wouldn't have to sweat the bottom bracket cluster.