The XC Skiing thread

[caleb]

So what are good brands and styles to look at? How do you pick a size?

-Joe

Fischer dominates the race market with their RCS models. Boulder Nordic Sport will put her on the right ones.

[caleb]

I've never XC skied anything, any way. I'm going to be spending a month in Yosemite, and would love to learn. Badger pass looks like it has lots and lots of options, and I understand none of them. It seems like there are lanes for classic, skate and off-piste, and while I know what those mean... I'm really lost. Lessons are definitely going to happen, but should I try each discipline to see what I like, or just stick to one for this winter?

The fundamentals are the same in skate and classic: balance, keeping a flat ski, body position, and timing. I think classic isolates the fundamentals and depends on them more than skate, so I tend to think classic is a better place to start. Someone with good classic technique can almost always quickly develop good skate technique.

Unfortunately, I frequently see fit guys come to skiing and want to skate right away. What often ends up happening is that they use their fitness to mask their technical deficiencies, and they never really learn the fundamentals. They end up plateauing quickly because they're pretty inefficient, but by that point they've developed bad habits and don't want to take the time to go back and really drill the basics. Good skiers always drill the fundamentals, and they work on their technique every day they're on snow.

Regardless of the technique you start with, I highly recommend that you ski without poles regularly. I probably won't use poles at all the first week I'm on snow this year, just to make sure I'm not cheating. I'll continue to ski a few miles without them each week all winter long.

Good luck! Nordic is a really great sport.

[spopepro]

So I went out today and took a lesson. They ended up, after a little bit of "discussion" amongst the staff, putting me on backcountry skis. I think this was because not everything was groomed, and tracks were only set intermittently.

You guys weren't kidding about the coordination thing. It took me about 2-3 miles in before really feeling the rhythym and moving well. Then I'd think "hey, I'm doing pretty well..." and imediately get out of whack. It seems almost like something one can work on forever and never be done. I also found out that I have puny-cyclist upperbody and core. Legs are a little sore, but lower back and arms (bad technique on the arms... working on that) are really shot.

I ended up with a short lesson, then went on an ungroomed trail to a small summit, had the excitement of skiing down powder on XC skis (only crashed once), went for a couple of miles on the groomed and tracked road, then for a bit on a marked, but ungroomed trail. I liked it quite a bit. It's awesome being out away from crowds where its quiet, not to mention not paying for a lift ticket. I'll be doing more of it when I have a chance. Thanks caleb and ned for the tips--they were spot on.

oldsummit.jpgpointtrail.jpgrangeW.jpg

[ThomasRZ]

I'm way into skate skiing, but after only four outings, my technique is still atrocious. I am so inefficient it's humiliating. I do get a workout in, though, what with all my grunting and forcing myself up hills

I should take lessons –– and I have a housemate who is near expert –– but does anyone have recommendations for reading/viewing on techniques and learning the lingo?

[caleb]

I'm way into skate skiing, but after only four outings, my technique is still atrocious. I am so inefficient it's humiliating. I do get a workout in, though, what with all my grunting and forcing myself up hills

I should take lessons –– and I have a housemate who is near expert –– but does anyone have recommendations for reading/viewing on techniques and learning the lingo?

There are some helpful videos on the Ride and Glide website: Ride and Glide They're not very well organized, but the links are in the left bar. You need V1, Open Field, and V2 to have a solid foundation. There might be a video of the Italian method of "hopping" V1 (which is useful on steep grades), and "coach's skate" (which is good for when you're blown). Those latter two aren't necessary for starting out though.

If you have specific questions, contact Steve Thatcher through the R&G website. He's a good guy who likes teaching skiing and would try to talk you through issues you're having over the phone.

[jamesand]

Wintervale:
ski.jpg

[globecanvas]

There is a weekly night MTB ride most of the year. The last week we've been doing the same single track trails on BC skis. Absolutely spectacular.

Last night we got, er, lost. Full on bushwhacking, up a cliff basically, for about a half hour. At the top there was a big swamp that's impassable most of the year. We skied through it. Spectacular.

[jamesand]

Since completing the Birkebeiner in 2003, I have been receiving emails from the 'SkiPost' kind of a tips and tricks listserve with information on races/tours, etc:
The following piece mentions how the pros now double pole marathon length races (50km, sometimes more).

I have perhaps double poled a km at a time on a flat and perfectly groomed loop just to test my arms.
Those guys are fuckighn animals:

SkiPost: Pro-Flip, Pole Length, Cold Snow Waxing


In Sunday's 50km Jizerská Padesatka SkiClassic FIS Marathon Cup in the Czech Republic Joergen Aukland placed 3rd in 2:15, (to his brother Anders and Lucas Bauer) using no kick wax and double poling the entire race. Joergen states "It was a hard race today! I was pretty skeptical if it would be a good idea to go on no kick wax and only using double poling, but in the end it was ok. Lukas was very strong in the first uphill and I had to push very hard to not completely loose contact. But then, it went better and better and about 6km before the finish, I caught Simen. Then I started thinking that a podium might be possible and I pushed very hard to get this third place."

[caleb]

I can't get at all excited about the trend toward extended double polling in classic races. It seems to have grown along with the tend toward flat classic sprints, migrating from the sprint races to the marathon distances. Double polling for 50k seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me, and it's part of the reason I'd never do a flat race like the Vasa classic. I have a buddy that even refuses to do the Birkie classic anymore because he doesn't want to "have to" double pole across the lake at the end. Classic without the striding just somehow seems wrong.

[sonny]

skiing is fun
i suck at skiing

[ned]

[spopepro]

Just getting around to posting this now, but I learned an important lesson before leaving Yosemite.

Ungroomed: cool.

Unbroken: not cool.
groomed.jpg

I had planned a 9 mile loop, the first 2 or so were on groomed tracks. The next bit (above) was supposed to be groomed, but they hadn't been able to get out there yet.

easy.jpgspeed.jpg

I'm thinking, "This isn't so bad. It's a little tougher, but I can totally handle this." Yeah... I didn't really realize that I was on powder over groomed trail. I eventually made it onto the ungroomed part.

deeperp.jpg

Now it's a slog. I'm either ankle deep or knee deep. I'm almost completely dependent on the reflective flags on the trees every so often to make sure I'm still on track. The trail is the ghost forest loop, probably because of this:

ghost.jpg

Yes, the trail is there... somewhere.

5.5 hours later... I'm completely beat. I'm bonking because I had food, but couldn't keep my gloves off, or stand still for long enough to eat it. But I did it... and probably won't ever again. Even if it was beautiful.

fire.jpg

[lukasz]

So what do I buy for puttering around through unplowed flat terrain? Preferably something that'll take bindings for Rossignol combi boots like this: X-6 COMBI | Boots | Rossignol | Nordic | Men |

Does such a thing even exist, or do I need new boots, too?

The existence of backcountry skis and backcountry touring skis and randonnee skis and various other combinations of those words is pretty confusing, especially because it seems like people on the internet use a lot of them interchangeably referring to different things.

[jamesand]

Get some Fischer Country Crowns, mount up your old bindings and go to town. Length is based on your body weight, mostly.

Fischer Country Crown Ski | Backcountry.com

The link above has all the dimensions. They are great skis for most everyone, have a decent amount of sidecut for turns and are snappy just kicking along.

[lukasz]

I have some pretty similar skis right now: Madshus Lillehammer waxable skis that I got deeply discounted two years ago. Internet says they're 52/47/50.

I was thinking about going as wide as possible until I get diminishing returns. I just don't know when those diminishing returns begin. No worries about not being able to use them in tracks or cross-country ski parks. Any ideas for something like that? Or are the couple of mm and different sidecut on the Fischer skis going to make a big difference?

[lukasz]

I don't have time for geeking out about skiing like I do about cycling, and yet here I am.

These seem cool: 2013 Madshus Eon Backcountry Skis - Available in Both Waxless & Waxable Versions

[ned]

I don't have time for geeking out about skiing like I do about cycling, and yet here I am.

These seem cool: 2013 Madshus Eon Backcountry Skis - Available in Both Waxless & Waxable Versions

Yes, something like that is what you want. Go waxless for the ungroomed putting about. Do you have those Rossi combi boots already or just thinking about them? They'd work with those skis but probably not the best option--they're meant as a groomed track boot capable of both classic and skate technique.

[lukasz]

Yeah I have them already. When I bought them two years ago I was thinking classic/skate but now I'm thinking ungroomed backcountry type stuff and eventually trying skiing with real elevation changes.

What is it about them that is bad? Just not heavy duty enough, or something about foot/heel retention?

[ned]

They'll be fine for small descents but won't have very good lateral support if you're really trying to turn the skis. No problem for snowplowing but tricky to get the skis on edge if the trail is hardpacked. Go ahead and mount a basic NNN binding--compatible with your combi boots now and a more backcountry oriented/beefier boot in the future.

The whole backcountry ski industry is exploding and getting turned on its head a bit. Every alpine/downhill company now makes boots and bindings with a tour (uphill) mode. Voile is making a fat, rockered ski with fishscales. My telemark set up is so big and stiff that I can make parallel turns as well as if my heels were locked down.

[lukasz]

What kind of binding am I looking at in the future? One of the NNN-BC styles? Any comparable skis to the Madshus Eon?

I did a bit of breaking trail on the skinny skis today. It was fun but I couldn't get any sort of glide until I was heading back along my track (still did much better than my girlfriend who was hiking--she's stealing my skis for next week so I think I'm buying those Eons tonight).

I was also getting a bit of snow stuck to my kick wax, which was odd because I thought that the wax I put on was pretty hard compared to the temperature. The air temp definitely never exceeded -7 celsius, which was the lower limit of the wax. Are waxless skis kind of like clinchers these days, or is the difference bigger? As much as I love messing with tubulars, ski waxes, klisters, canti brakes (ok that's my limit), etc... I think waxless may be a good idea for me, considering the near freezing temperatures and often old snow I usually encounter unless I drive north for an hour.

I'm thinking a newbie wax application is worse than modern waxless skis. Opinion?