Japanese Knife Technique

[WadePatton]

omigosh this is goooood,

knives, fishes, sharpening, super thanks and especially for the vid.

i'm going back to study now...as all my fish come whole, making flippy floppy you know.

[spopepro]

not sure, but i think he's just scoring the meat on the underside of the spine to make it easier to release the remaining filet from the spine in the next step. Either that, or he's just demonstrating what he's about to do. I notice he doesn't do this step and the technique is slightly different when he demonstrates on a .

He is just demonstrating, since you can't see what the knife is hitting with fish on top. Pros (like the guy in the vid) make 2 cuts, one to cut the skin, then one to cut the fillet away from the bones. Novices (like me) are using 3 cuts. 1, cut the skin, 2 cut against the bones, 3 use the tip along the spine. The three steps allow me to focus on one thing at a time. I couldn't reliably get all the way in, and as close to the bones as possible all in one swipe at this point.

[jitahs]

He is just demonstrating, since you can't see what the knife is hitting with fish on top. Pros (like the guy in the vid) make 2 cuts, one to cut the skin, then one to cut the fillet away from the bones. Novices (like me) are using 3 cuts. 1, cut the skin, 2 cut against the bones, 3 use the tip along the spine. The three steps allow me to focus on one thing at a time. I couldn't reliably get all the way in, and as close to the bones as possible all in one swipe at this point.

Tok
Tok
Tok

Holy Mackerel skip jack tune is operatic (nod across the room)

Retired sushi chefs across Japan with affordable internet (big ask I know)- 'his sawing pisses me off but so clean'

Reminds me of my Japanese pull saw - it will cover a good amount for my sloppy technique, not that I have any room to judge.

[robp]

I have never heard of using a yanagiba on vegetables. Pretty strange if you ask me as it would really only limit you to slicing them.

Here's a couple cool vids going a little more into deba technique:

[robp]

And an example of ikizukuri with fugu:

[spopepro]

I asked Taka-sensei why not usuba, and he said that while usuba can be slightly better, yanagiba can do much of the same, as well as some decorative cuts that usuba cannot.

It is now my understanding that even with usuba, there is no chopping. Everything is slicing in one way or another. And it's really interesting that when you get it right, the sound is completely different--it's hard to explain. I have lots and lots of katsuramuki practice to do. It's a real challenge to get it all coordinated and keep it thin. My biggest challenge is in keeping the knife parallel to the vegetable so the sheet is of equal thickness across.

One interesting thing: we peeled an apple. Now when I finished I thought "well that was a lot more work than using a vegetable peeler". And then I noticed: 3 hours later the apples hadn't turned brown. The cleaner cut must expose less of what's in the cells to the air and help keep things from oxidizing. Pretty cool.

[spopepro]

Picture linking fail. This should have been after the first line above:
cukefan.jpg

[WadePatton]

I've learned a bunch here fellas, thanks.

I'll never look at a fish quite the same way again.

next time we bring in a boatload of Mackerel, I'll be much better prepared...come on October!

and even though I have 43 knives, i hadda order a deba just to try the single bevel. Also found that a ripe banana will test your thin-slicing skills quite nicely.

Won't be giving away any more Bonita either...

And also GOOD GAWD i hate that video game-esque "music" introducing so many of those Japanese vids. Just keep the sound off if you don't speak.

[WadePatton]

... Japanese technique for whole fish breakdown. Realize that I have very, very little experience with the western method, so I have little basis for comparison, but I was impressed how easy and fast the Japanese method is using the purpose built deba. I'll be purchasing a deba now, and probably start buying whole fish much more often...

this was what we had to "break down" a while back:



24 Espanish, 4 Kings-up to 44"

knowing nothing of Japanese technique, but having cut up thousands of fishes before, we didn't think much of it, AND it took us forever and we just got them filleted the first day, spent half the next repacking into freezer bags.

Next time I hope to look a little more like this fellow: (that's not Spanish Mackerel btw)




and I found this interesting, and want to share as many steel users don't understand the steel. And why a steel is bad for Japanese knives and that a stone is better for all-esplained:



so

I'm shopping for a set of stones, and have a pkg on the way from the Far East. HAVE even thought about buying a fish, but that just seems weird.

Learning to hone a straight razor and maintain that edge-has vastly increased my understanding of cutting edges. This builds upon that.

[spopepro]

Wade, that's a lot of fish!

So you might also be interested in some other details--most people won't care, but if you're a pro, then you'll be doing lots of fish and reducing the number of times you move the fish helps speed things up and also keep you from getting tired.

We were taught:
1. fish head to right, belly close. From here you can separate the gills, break the collar and remove the guts (I should really try to take some pictures) with only one "flip" of the fish.
2. fish head to left, belly close. cut behind the head, flip, cut and then chop spine (which is why you started with the spine away before flipping). now fillet the high side (involves a turn), flip and fillet the bottom.

It should help, at least a little if you're doing a boatload, or if you have something like a salmon, or larger and it's actually tough to move. The guy above is fast, and I'm sure his method works great, but with my puny cyclist upper body I'd be done after pushing the third fish around like that.

[robp]

note from wp:sorry rob, i flubbed up and destroyed your post accidentally (moderator error)

below is the reply.

[WadePatton]

Jon has a bunch of great videos in his youtube channel. If you're looking for stones I'd also suggest contacting him. He can give you some great recommendations and point you in the right direction. Ive had only the most positive experiences ordering from him:

Japanese Knife Imports- Home

yes i've seen about everything on youtube wrt Japanese knives and fish...there's a lot of that. NO i'm not ordering any more knives! until i get "in tune" with the two i bought (drinkin' and surfin' agin).

One is all stainless (before i knew the diff) the other is "properly" layered high-carbon (white) steel and wrought iron. Kasumi. Looks a lot like this:




That should let me figger out if i need to save up and spend more and/or acquire other styles, but i expect to be happy with that one (90-bucks, pre-customs). i sashimied some King last night with a double-beveled forschner-which works fine for that, but is too light for "dismantling" .

[spopepro]

Wade, that's a fine knife, and you'll never *need* anything more. More cash will either get you beauty, or details that you don't know if you want or not. The local shop recommends a $80 deba for beginners and think enough of it to figure it is good enough for years of solid use. I spent a few more bucks for a pretty knife--pure vanity.

[WadePatton]

...
It is now my understanding that even with usuba, there is no chopping. Everything is slicing in one way or another. And it's really interesting that when you get it right, the sound is completely different--it's hard to explain. I have lots and lots of katsuramuki practice to do. It's a real challenge to get it all coordinated and keep it thin. My biggest challenge is in keeping the knife parallel to the vegetable so the sheet is of equal thickness across.

One interesting thing: we peeled an apple. Now when I finished I thought "well that was a lot more work than using a vegetable peeler". And then I noticed: 3 hours later the apples hadn't turned brown. The cleaner cut must expose less of what's in the cells to the air and help keep things from oxidizing. Pretty cool.

not having any instruction but seeing vidyea and pics, i started making my hashbrowns, by slicing. mostly, because i can, and it's great practice--but also because i hate effing with the grater. knives clean up so quickly.

and yes absolutely, that appears to be a cornerstone of Japanese technique: minimizing damage to the food via the properly sharp edge and precise technique.

the Halibut is, i really didn't have any idea what all the finely sliced stuff was about in the Japanese restaurants. now i gets it.

(as for photos, untick the checkbox if you're using a URL works for me).

[WadePatton]

That deda (pics above). came today and I EFFING love the heft of it, but has to get back outside before dark...will hone and play with it tonight. maybe i won't get blood on the keyboard.

[Cookietruck]

is yrs single bevel?

[WadePatton]

is yrs single bevel?

why would i buy a deda that wasn't? for me that is definitional. OR ARE you referring to a compound bevel on the bevel side? Not sure i follow the question.

there's a pic above showing the bevel (post number 32). the backside is hollow ground as shown by the illustrations further up the page.

bevel is visible here:




14 oz on my kitchen scale. My stoutest western chef's knife is nine oz. and it's longer.

Metrically speaking,410g vs. 260g. (rounded). If i was going to a knife fight...

[WadePatton]

The deba is just rawesome. I've GOT to get a usuba and a yanagiba. Don't think i'll need anything else-as the rank hillbilly amateur fish/fruit/game/vegetable butcher/cook.

another one of those things that i don't know how i got by so long being ignorant of. thanks for removing another layer of said.

used the deba for some minor self-surgery this morning. better point than any razor i have.

[spopepro]

Yeah... traditional japanese knives make me look at my western knives like I'd look at my 11th graders in algebra I for the 3rd time... I need more, but I know you probably just can't do it. A combination of disappointment, sadness and desperation. But, like my 11th graders, I just can't bring myself to give up.

My suggestion: skip the usuba for now. The sushi/washoku chefs I've talked to recently use the yanigiba for just about everything, and don't carry the usuba. Other advice given to me has been: By a cheap yanigi. 1) you probably won't know how long of a knife you will want at first and 2) it kind of doesn't matter. A cheap yanagi is very suitable, as long as it isn't massively bowed or ground completely wrong. (note: my cheap yanagiba *was* ground completely wrong and it took an hour with a 220 stone to put it right, but even still, it's just fine--but that doesn't keep me from having plans to gift it to my brother and get myself a masamoto HA in 270mm)

[WadePatton]

I'm looking at "whole kitchen" needs, eventually using Japanese steel for everything food prep wise. I'm not rushing out to get anything, but the slicer is next. And i'll likely repeat buy from the same seller, I'm quite pleased with my sub-100 buck deba, and feel sure that the same knife would cost more through traditional channels.

ON Technique, as i don't speak any Japanese, so it's not real easy to navigate the information on youtube accurately. I've seen dozens of "dismantlement" videos so far, but am still looking for a how they'd do a catfish* or catfish shaped/skinned critter. I found one torpedo-shaped fish vid, but would like to see more.

*I did finally discover how to avoid the muddy meat on our catfish (if you've ever tasted it, you know what i'm talking about). It's like this: first of all, there is no muddy tasting meat on the almighty Flathead/Yellow Cat. They are good eating stem to stern (they don't eat carrion like the others-only fish and crawfish). So for quite some time that's the only catfish I'd eat. The Channel Cat and Blue Cat (C/B) have the muddy meat, and through trial and error (trotlines are non-selective, C/B cats will hit the live bait i put out for Flatties) I found that the muddy meat is all that encloses the internal organs of the C/B cats. So when i keep them I only take meat from above the ribs and from the vent back (no need to open the body cavity at all)...whereas i used to give C/B's away in order to avoid the funky flavors. Whereas the belly meat on a Flathead is fanTAStic. I totally understand folks who don't like catfish at all because they've been served the funky stuff from the others. Enjoy!

also, if you are gifted some pre-dismantled (love that term) catfish, simply smell each piece. the muddy meat will be obvious if it's in there. give it to the cats (feline), the rest will be fine.