Japanese Knife Technique

[jitahs]

Renaissance hillbilly deba-wielding youtube sensation WP presents...catfish?

[WadePatton]

Trouble with all the freshwaters fishes is that they has to be cooked. Cooking fish just rubs me the wrong way sometimes. But then that's how i started smoking it...

So back to Japan: I bought this one today, and I'm DONE knife shopping for a while. (270mm)

[robp]

Any reason for the yanagiba over a sujihiki as a slicer?

[WadePatton]

Any reason for the yanagiba over a sujihiki as a slicer?

I'm going full-on traditional. Love the single bevel on my Deba, just made a batch of multi-veggie kraut with it.*

There's a lot of discussion wrt this "out there" but for me, personally, it's just about the three basic traditional, non-westernized Japanese knives.

Someone who knows more might might chime in.

*checked the edge with some paper, to see if chopping cabbage or hitting the teak board affected sharpness...hell i think it got sharper. (my left forearm is partially shaven too.)

[WadePatton]

Striper Steaks (aka Rockfish in the freshwaters of TN)

Here is the Deba vs. a well-distributed fish both fresh and salty waters:

(and the music ain't bad)






notice how he doesn't chop through the largest rib bones on this fish.

[spopepro]

Any reason for the yanagiba over a sujihiki as a slicer?

Also not an expert, but that's never stopped me before.

If all you're ever doing is slicing a sujihiki is a fine choice. If you're not committed to practicing the subtlely different, but critical, Japanese cutting motions, or if you intend to let your knife ever come near bones, a suji is a *better* choice.

A yanagi will be more precise, sharpen to a much finer edge, and will do things like not pushing the food while slicing the portion. Look for "Japanese knife society" videos on YouTube (doing this from phone, otherwise I'd link) and you can see what I mean where the block of fish doesn't move, the portion falls away freely, and the only motion is a straight pull. A sujihiki won't do all of that, but for 99% of the world a fine sujihiki is an excellent tool.

And let's be honest... single bevel wa knives are bad ass.

[robp]

Definitely agree with the bad assness aspect . Only ask as its been my experience (years with these knives in pro kitchens) that because, like you mentioned, the edge of yanagiba are typically taken to a higher level of refinement, they are more fragile. I have chipped yanagiba just slicing meat with crusty exterior more than once. Even chipped one just on a piece of salt and peppered meat. I will only use on raw proteins now. To tell you the truth I really dont touch my yanagiba anymore. My suji sharped on a 90/10 bias is plenty precise and much more versatile for me - than again Im not a sushi chef ha. In the end, Im a big proponent of using whatever gets you excited to cook. What steel is the knife you picked up wade?

[WadePatton]

Definitely agree with the bad assness aspect.... In the end, Im a big proponent of using whatever gets you excited to cook. What steel is the knife you picked up wade?

yes, and it's white steel edge with wrought iron. High carbon all the way. I'm nuts about keeping it wiped and oiled right now...but eventually she'll take a bit of color-as all those in the videos show. I don't think i'll ever need "blue steel" i'm already nervous about chipping the blade. Fish whacking will be the test.

also, good discussion as to Japanese knife steels here: http://knifeforums.com/forums/showto...d/876534/tp/2/

I don't know what grade of white I'm buying, but like it plenty enough for the price.

**Seller indicates that the edge is SK-5, Hardness ~59** (Japanese version of 1080)

Makes me itch to chop and slice, hell my cocktails even improved-the garnishing part.

here's part of the ebay blurb:

• Brand---Sakai Yoshiharu
• Edge---Japanese Carbon Steel
• Blade---Single-beveled edge for a right-handed person
Hand crafted
• Handle---Hou Wood(Magnolia) with hand painted Akebono Nuri (Japanese lacquer ware)
• Blade Length---270mm(10.6") from tip to handle
• Total Length---415(16.3")

(seller is "bluewayjapan" and i'm impressed with his service, communication, and products, so much that i bought the second knife from him. also have another knife "in transit" from another vendor--it's SS-and somewhat cheaper.)

I'm only using western stuff now when i don't care to get the deba out and clean it back up.

*************************

Here is a vid of the wrong knife being used*, but getting the job done. I cringed when he smacked the spine with that one. (found this video on the other vendor's sales page.)

*every other Asian i've seen dismantle a fish uses a deba for everything, save for some who switch to a yanagiba or similar for final trim up of the fillets once off the "frame" of the fish (Julia Child term).


his title: How to use of the Sushi Sashimi Chef Knife

[WadePatton]

received my yanagiba today. It's lovely and the service and packaging and engraving delivered by "BluewayJapan" (Keiichi Omae) is great, I fully endorse his ebay store-IF you don't have a local shop to support.

LKS should always be the first choice yo.

These "entry level" knives are (only) SK5 steel, but i'm quite satisfied with them at this point. I'll know more about that after a few dozen fishes are dismantled.

And yes i nipped myself the other day--wiping a bit too carelessly i caught the end of my left index finger with the tip of the deba. Like a sharp knife through flesh...but cleanly sliced wounds heal quickly.

Also, finding no direct Kanji translation for "Wade" we settled on "渓流釣師"

literally "mountain stream angler" i am told.

[robp]

Cool vid of a cool knife:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10102343970027107

[WadePatton]

I recently realized that I only use a small paring knife and my Deba now for everything.

and also i've only "dismantled" one fish with it yet as that's all i've caught ('twas a cold day in early March and me on a creekbank). just love having wicked sharpness ready all the time.

and yeah, it'll bite you but it's a clean bite-heals quickly.

i bought the Norton kit with 220/1000, 4000/8000, and flattening stone. I thinks diamond flattening may be a better option. this kit also brought my straight razors up a notch-from the Belgian Amber.

Although my knife is real entry level, I may never make the "pay grade" to feel the difference or need any more durability. Ease of sharpening is everything for me*. I'm satisfied with "entry-level", which i expect would cost 100-200 in a LKS.

Thanks for the intro to single-bevel knifery.

*While i have the Edge Pro sharpening set up and can do great double-bevel work, working straight on the stone with the single-bevel is much more pleasing and just as effective.

[zetroc]

So I bought a MAC usuba last weekend. My favorite kitchen store (Kamei Restaurant Supply on Clement) happened to have one in stock, and it was a good deal, and I'd just had some Chartreuse, so I went for it. As others have said it's more of a nakiri, being thin and having a double bevel, but for my amateur purposes it will be fine. Looking forward to attempting katsuramuki and ken cuts on some daikon.

[spopepro]

So I bought a MAC usuba last weekend. My favorite kitchen store (Kamei Restaurant Supply on Clement) happened to have one in stock, and it was a good deal, and I'd just had some Chartreuse, so I went for it. As others have said it's more of a nakiri, being thin and having a double bevel, but for my amateur purposes it will be fine. Looking forward to attempting katsuramuki and ken cuts on some daikon.

You should be able to do both with that knife. Single bevel is nice, but not necessary.

Tips:
Start with cucumber. Daikon is really dense and has a tendency to grab the knife. Cucumber is a little more forgiving as you learn form.
Hold the vegetable with your left hand fingertips--don't let it get into your palm. This is to keep you from cutting yourself if you happen to slip.
Left and turns the vegetable, right hand moves knife up and down.
Keep your right hand thumb over the blade (well, over the vegetable over the blade). Don't let it get too far over to either side.
Hold the vegetable up and in front of you.

After getting the sheets, stack the sheets, and then with the blade against your knuckle make sweeping motions forward to make ken. Western knife users will inevitably use too much force down and not enough movement away from the body. It's definitely a slice and no chop. It sounds different when you get it right.

[caleb]

(seller is "bluewayjapan" and i'm impressed with his service, communication, and products, so much that i bought the second knife from him.

Any long term thoughts on those knives?

I have my eye on a few they carry as a utility knife.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-MAS...item35ca2078d8

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-TOJ...item35cad14664

Japanese Sakai Carbon Steel WA Petty Knife 150mm Akebono | eBay

[Cookietruck]

Any long term thoughts on those knives?

I have my eye on a few they carry as a utility knife.

Japanese Masahiro Petty Knife 150mm MV H 14804 | eBay

Japanese Tojiro DP Cobalt Petty Knife 150mm | eBay

Japanese Sakai Carbon Steel WA Petty Knife 150mm Akebono | eBay

i can't speak specifically to the blueway knives, but i'm really starting to dig the 150mm petty knife i have for much of the kitchen work. like breaking down chickens and stuff. mine has pretty thick blade for the size so it doesn't really slice that well but for the utility type stuff it's awesome.

last time i sharpened the knives i did the petty too, the small size made it real easy to get the edge nice all the way to the tip. the end of the tip would shave hair off the top of my hand. so that's pretty nice. the longer chef's knives are a little harder to get like that for me...

[WadePatton]

Any long term thoughts on those knives?

I have my eye on a few they carry as a utility knife.

Japanese Sakai Carbon Steel WA Petty Knife 150mm Akebono | eBay

Sorry, i was distracted.

The last one matches what i have, so that's what I'd get. But i just don't care about double bevel knives much anymore. (just razors). What did you get?

I still recommend that seller (again, in the absence of a shop (LKS) where you can get hands-on assistance in your own language.)

also, I dropped the Deba a while back, it jumped out of the box and onto asphalt-chipping the hell out of the edge. Today I ordered a 1000k King waterstone, which i'll use to rework that bevel (after some coarse DMT work). Then 4k and 8k Nortons.

PS-I'm going to start "killing" the point of the heel. That's how i nick myself, and it won't affect preformance of the blade.

[Cookietruck]

yeah that point on the heel is something to be wary of

i dropped my shiki gyuto shortly after i got it, thought it landed on the spine but i noticed the tip had the slightest of bends in it. first time on the stones took care of that.
also, that 8k norton and a few strokes on a strop or old belt will probably make that knife cut noticeably better than it did when it was new.

[Cookietruck]

one more comment and i'll shut up, since this is the japanese knife technique thread...

had some friends over for dinner the other night, cool. they cook regularly, have done/do prep work in kitchens, eat out at fancy places, probably consider themselves foodies, they're into all the hip foods right now...tartar, pate, eggs on everything, ramen, pho, rare cooked beef...so on and so forth.

so one is just chopping some kale, naturally she grabs the fancy looking handle which happens to be a nakiri, cool. i walk in and see her holding the knife with her right hand normally and is using her left hand to smash down on the spine of the blade...pushing it into the cutting board and the other has just walked over and says, wow that knife blade is really flimsy, weird. i just said...umm if you want a stiffer blade try that knife right there or maybe you want that big heavy german knife like you have at home...it's right there.

wanted to say, bro, the purpose of that thin thin blade and very sharp edge is so you can barely push the blade down, focus on making flat contact with the board and maybe...if you need...give that knife just the tiniest of slides and...then repeat.
it's about precision and minimal work. not brute force. so try that.
but i just poured another beer and finished grilling our awesome steaks...

kinda surprised me coming from them though.

[maunahaole]

[vertical_doug]

This thread just feels incomplete without Samurai Futaba demonstrating sword technique