BB threader/facer on a budget

[fpavao]

Hey guys. I'm going to start my sixth frame soon and I don't want to buy a BB already faced and threaded from abroad (I'm in Brazil, if you want to know). I can get tubes of the right size for bbs here, problem is they come in bars 6 meters long. So I need to find a way to prepare this tubes to turn them into rideable bikes.

Other problem: money. I was looking at the cyclus threader tool (.: RA-CO GmbH • IHR RADSPORT GROSSHANDEL • 720140 - bottom bracket threading tool BSA (1,370" x 24 tpi) complete PROFESSIONAL TOOL :.), wich would fit my budget. But it's just a threader. Does anyone own/have seen this tool? Is it possible to fit a reamer spare somehow? I can probably get reamers from the right size around here, but I haven't seen a 1.37"x24tpi anywhere near.

Other ideia: buy a head tube reamer, fit a bb reamer and use this tool for lots of things around the workshop.

I don't have a lathe, although it is a possibility for the future. I can also send the tubes to someone who has a lathe, but I find this pretty expensive too.

Any ideas or tips?

[pruckelshaus]

Honestly, cheapest/easiest thing to do is to buy the BB shells threaded and faced.

[Todd Mosley]

You'd have to build a lot of frames before you ever recoup the expense of the tool.

[Eric Estlund]

This is not a "budget" minded operation. Hand tools are designed to clean up or recut existing threads, not cut new ones into a shell. You could cut these on a lathe, or use a dedicated BB threading machine, but neither is an inexpensive option. This is one of those parts that is much less expensive (including production time and costs) unless you are well tooled and making the part in high volume. Paragon shells are fantastic and very reasonably priced. You may also be able to source some reasonably priced units from an Asian source.

When the time comes to buy a BB tap, buy the nicest you can (the Cyclus unit is quite nice).

[fpavao]

I've done the calculations. Buying the threader only would start to pay off at 30 bikes approximately, not taking in account carriage or customs (wich is almost like a lottery). Also, those bbs come in 4130 and I'll be working with hi-ten also. Seems useless and a waste of money to have an expensive 4130 bb on a cheap frame.

I realize the market here is probably very different from the ones up there. My plan is cheap bikes and a considerable volume. Mind you, my cheap bike is not necessarily bad in quality, considering the other options customers have (cheap marketlpace mtbs or oversized chinese aluminum ones).

Eric, do you think the cyclus taps would work well on hi ten steel?

The other, more expensive, option, is still buy a small lathe wich would help me on other operations as well. I like this ideia, but I don't have the money right now.

So I think the real question is: buy the manual threader now or save the money to buy a lathe on the future, meanwhile using bbs from abroad?


ps. I know hi ten sounds terrible for a framebuilder, but it's the only option I have now. Cromoly costs are prohibitive.

[EricKeller]

the manual threaders are not for threading new threads. They are for chasing existing threads. You will wear it out before you get your money out of it.

[sam]

What ever you do decide on, remember a good mechanic can not afford a cheap tool. That being said I dont see doing it by hand as a viable option. I see the taps not lasting to long cutting new threads, I think it will be frustrating, and will take to long. I have never cut threads in a virgin shell before, but have restored threads in hundreds, its just my opinion

[fpavao]

Are you guys sure there are no hand tools for cutting new threads? I've seen it advertised as different tools. There are the ones for clearing the thread and the ones for making a new one. I'm not sure as I've never even seen one live... Remeber I'll use them mostly on hi-ten, wich will probably be less demanding than 4130.

Also, one of the first questions I asked, does the cyclus tool accepts other types of cutters/threaders on the handles?

[Eric Estlund]

I have the thread cutting Cyclus tool- it is not designed to cut new threads in a bare shell. It cuts new threads in weld blow out or in stays poking through a shell. While you might be able to make it work for a frame, it would be prohibitive for a run of bikes.

Find a Taiwanese connection and order a case of mid quality steel BB shells pre-threaded. Pay the shipping and the duty, and you will still come out ahead compared to buying new taps for your Cyclus cutter. You mention considerable quantity- is that 10, 30, 100, 500, 1000 frames a year*? If you are building bikes in quantity be prepared to tool up appropriately. Threading BB shells will be the least of your worries when chasing inefficiencies for a low margin/high volume production standard.

*When I worked at a company making about 2000 bikes a year we found it much more cost effective to buy shells. As a guy who makes considerably less then that as a solo builder I also find it more cost effective to buy threaded shells.

Most companies handles are made for their own cutters.

[adashner]

Bought an icetoolz chaser/facer from winstanleysbikes.com for, like, 225 to the door. Cyclus cutters, done ~8 bikes so far, holding up just fine.

[fpavao]

Thanks for the help then, guys. I won't spend my money on the tool now. I'll save and work with imports and other shops with lathes around here.

Eric Estlund: for now, a production of about 15 frames a month would be great. Seems a doable number to me, considering I won't paint anything and won't braze most forks.

[shand]

I've done the calculations. Buying the threader only would start to pay off at 30 bikes approximately

really? including your labour time to cut, thread and face the tubes? I question your numbers on that one.

Even though I'm in Europe, I still buy shells from Paragon in the US. I can imagine about 487 things I'd rather do with my time than thread BB shells to save a buck.

Steven

[Eric Estlund]

So lets double that to 360 shells a year, and lets say you are going to pay 50% mark up on freight and import- from Paragon that is $7.5 a shell ($2700). Let's assume you can get the material for $1 each, and that the actual cost of threading is $1 each (labor, overhead, time not spent on other stuff, tooling costs). At $5.5 each it would only take 15 years to break even on that used CNC lathe if you paid cash for it (not counting power, maintenance, training time, etc).

* All my numbers are a bit conservative estimates for illustration.

[fpavao]

So lets double that to 360 shells a year, and lets say you are going to pay 50% mark up on freight and import- from Paragon that is $7.5 a shell ($2700). Let's assume you can get the material for $1 each, and that the actual cost of threading is $1 each (labor, overhead, time not spent on other stuff, tooling costs). At $5.5 each it would only take 15 years to break even on that used CNC lathe if you paid cash for it (not counting power, maintenance, training time, etc).

* All my numbers are a bit conservative estimates for illustration.

Problem is the taxes in Brazil can go up to 100%. A single paragon shell would cost about 12 usd. I can get the material here(in 1020 steel) for about 0.25 usd a piece... About the threading costs, I have absolutely no idea.

Sometimes (most of the time) i hate my country.

I'll eventually buy the lathe and do other stuff on it, like machining the dropouts, facing the headtube and some other small stuff. I know it's expensive, but I think it's better than relying on other people and having to explain to them exactly what I want.

[fpavao]

really? including your labour time to cut, thread and face the tubes? I question your numbers on that one.

Even though I'm in Europe, I still buy shells from Paragon in the US. I can imagine about 487 things I'd rather do with my time than thread BB shells to save a buck.

Steven

Frame only, no fork, no paint. I think it's possible.

Actually, I'm mostly thinking about single speeds and fixies wich don't have a lot of brazeons to consume time. Yes, fixies are a fad here now.

[Eric Estlund]

Don't forget about parting, facing and internally relieving (though I'm guessing you will skip that step with your bikes).

It's all very doable, but the idea of "budget" will directly relate to volume and how much capitol you have for upfront tooling vs long term material parts/ sourcing. If you build enough bikes, it's clearly the way to go. I'm not sure less then 200 units a year is that threshold, but it only needs to make sense on your books.

[adashner]

What are your circumstances in regard to local machine shops? Here, I would consider that option for what you are describing. Of course, there are a wealth of machine shops around here, I know it would be at least worth checking out as an option.

[GrayJay]

Perhaps consider building the SS/Fixies with unthreaded BMX bottom brackets to lessen the need for threading? Never done it, but i would imagine that there is less of a need for such bike-specific tooling in order to finish a BMX shell.

[fpavao]

Don't forget about parting, facing and internally relieving (though I'm guessing you will skip that step with your bikes).

It's all very doable, but the idea of "budget" will directly relate to volume and how much capitol you have for upfront tooling vs long term material parts/ sourcing. If you build enough bikes, it's clearly the way to go. I'm not sure less then 200 units a year is that threshold, but it only needs to make sense on your books.

I haven't done all the calculations but I'm optimistic. I haven't set a price on frames or parts yet, but I think i'm gonna be fine. Mostly because of lack of competition, I can do almos anything I want!

lol, joking. The prices are gonna be fair.

What are your circumstances in regard to local machine shops? Here, I would consider that option for what you are describing. Of course, there are a wealth of machine shops around here, I know it would be at least worth checking out as an option.

There are quite a lot. Some are unprofessional, some are too professional and the prices vary wildly. I'll try to find a good shop and stick to it.

Perhaps consider building the SS/Fixies with unthreaded BMX bottom brackets to lessen the need for threading? Never done it, but i would imagine that there is less of a need for such bike-specific tooling in order to finish a BMX shell.

I don't know anything about bmxs. What I've seen is bikes with a single-set crank (don't know how to call it in english). They are used mostly on cheap dutch-style bikes around here. They are heavy but cool. All you need is a hammer to assemble them. It's an option, not the best looking one.

[afwalker]

My icetools chaser/facer broke after 2 bikes:(
I find that the Cyclus Bottom Bracket Threading and Facing Tool from Ceeway is much better made. YMMV but I hate spending good money after bad.
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