On Branding atmo -

[MarkC]

Trying to protect a specific piece of pie in any market is a road to oblivion. Others will peck away at that share until there is nothing left.

A better strategy is to grow the pie. Framebuilders should try to act together to some extent to do that. And I don't think the single person shop is at all irrelevant. Rather the contrary.


Toward branding - I personally consider a framebuilders participation in the community when prying open my wallet. It isn't the deal maker persee, but if I know the builder is giving back, helping the craft, maybe providing good advice to a few up and comers, I see that as favorable toward their brand. It makes me happier about my purchase. The frame is the key, but feeling good about the purchase is a nice bonus and the little bits add up.

Mark

[Mike Mcdermid]

See this kind of goes on to my whole misunderstanding of the Rapha thing

did the builders jump on the back of a bandwagon as a good brand to be associated with?If so sure it will get them some pages in a few mags or even on the www but does that mean they are better builders than those that didn't,

I once remember designing a TT bike and was told by the boss it doesn't matter if its fast ,in effect we dont care about the technicalities ,the plan was just to pay the guy to go out with no intention of winning but put that bike on camera at the front for 40 odd minutes ,it would sell frames

As for the custom purchaser im pretty sure they are educated in the custom world ,they follow the scene otherwise they would be buying the trekialized brand no?

As a matter of principle all our stuff is sourced right down to the tube material and mill if we dont have to use a brand supplier (for example reynolds) we will source something that exceeds it in terms of quality ,as above there are those that will care there are those that wont give a damn

either way this is one of the most interesting topics to crop up on this forum bar none (sticky potential possibly)

[e-RICHIE]

See this kind of goes on to my whole misunderstanding of the Rapha thing

did the builders jump on the back of a bandwagon as a good brand to be associated with?If so sure it will get them some pages in a few mags or even on the www but does that mean they are better builders than those that didn't, <cut>

The Rapha liaison is a tool. Synergy. It's up to you (the effbuilder) to put a value on it and make the investment work.

[Mark Walberg]

Me: It's all I've got: Makers And Menders Part IV: Coconino Cycles | KNAU Arizona Public Radio
- Garro.

Great write up Steve.
You are not only "part of the fabric of Flagstaff", but also part of the fabric of cycling.
-Mark

[Amaro Bikes]

First of all, thanks all of you for sharing such interesting texts. I wish my english was mother tongue as to catch full sense of every word as I can see there're so many years and experience layers on them

My very humble opinion is that it's not only speaking about branding, but bespoke bicycle branding, or any other "special" product branding wich looks for a special perspective on the matter.

I abosultely agree with the opinions of being all one, the maker, the brand, the experience, something real, true, unfaked. Anyone might be able to learn how to build a bike (or a watch, or a jacket), but the result would be completely different in each case. And I'm not just speaking about how good or bad is this product on the objective side, but taking the result as a professionally built one, each builder will reflect the different person behind it. The strong characters will be easily be visible and either hated or loved, and maybe other ones will go for giving the customer the chance to choose the result, or... In fact, I think it does not really matter about brands, bikes or anyother thing, in such special business, it's similar to what happen with personal relationships, you can meet people, everyone is different, not only for what they do, what they've done, how they express theirselves, their contacts, way of dressing, phisycal appearance, vibes, knowledge... then as anyother one is also unique on their own, different pairs will happen, matching accordingly to their own personalities, needs, etc, and one who is absolutely best one in the world for someones, will be worst stupid one for others.

So, as it happens in personal life, you can be fake and try to be someone you're not, in the thought this will help you out knowing other people or reaching your targets, but most likely sooner or later people will realize of it and get a dillusion, then you can move forward for new "victims" (if they're available) or fade into solitude. In the other hand, you can choose to be the one you really are, and go for it 100%, then whatever life gives to you will come and stay for long, as it's not a pose or effort, it's just you.

Problem is ther're millions of people out there, and some are better looking, others much smarter, others just have more money and others might be incredibly talented speakers, they might be more succesful and people would love to meet them, and that's ok, but none of them is exactly as you, with your own combination of ingredients, and for sure someone will just love this very exact receipt, better to be ready for them and work everyday on being as you as possible, with your own evolutions and changes, as the 20 years ago "you" is not the same "you" as today, but at least it's always you.

This is why I think it's not only important to be a good builder as the techinique in itself, creating a well made bicycle (wich should not be even a question), but to work on yourself as a person, as a mind, as a whole

Cheers

[crumpton]

I give enough away to try to encourage people to build safe bikes.

agreed

[crumpton]

Rather than quote a few posts from this thread let this comment address some of what you've read or rather heard in this thread regarding helping and competition.

A 10 year run for me thus far, I guess I scored pretty early with some unique stuff. Rough early on but still unique. I gave a lot of help early on as well. My thought that was as long as I was out there doing my process in such a unique fashion, I needed to see others following similarly to, shall we say, legitimize what was an odd way of building a carbon bike at the time. I'm not sorry I did some of that but I don't do much anymore.

I have been told by a few making a go and some who have since done well that I was an inspiration and a huge help. Now they pretty much all sell against me. Do not kid yourself if you think your "peers" won't sell against you. They will. And they need to. And that's just ok with me. At first I was a bit flustered by that realization, almost set out reactionary about it. In other words, start selling against the competition. But I haven't really done that. Ask anyone who has inquired with me what is said when they ask about the other guys or why choose me over them. Instead it has caused me to bolster that "brand" which I spoke of, my work. Thats it. No reaction with some trend, gadget, fancy paint, or marketing exploit. But rather continuing to evolve in pursuit of doing that much better every time.

Now my best marketing tool is my work. I use to be shy about it but now I am not. I am happy to put it in anyones face(politely) and am proud of it. So you see, this is emotional stuff for which there is no manuel or class.

Again, my brand, my work.

[fortyfour]

With regards to sharing knowledge, helping others and passing along skills, I found this interview from today's Diane Rehm show very interesting and relative to parts of our discussion here. Give a listen here.

The concept of giving and sharing knowledge without expecting anything in return is one that I believe in and put into practice with what I do be it on the design end of things or the framebuilding/craftsmanship end of things. I feel as though that by giving back at my own comfort and expertise level, I'm helping to contribute to the larger story and passing along knowledge that was passed along to me. Naturally, this approach is not for everyone and there are some things I hold close, but I feel as though by giving back and providing expertise where I can, something good is bound to come out of it. If anything, it is rewarding to see the outcome of others success.

[e-RICHIE]

The concept of giving and sharing knowledge without expecting anything in return is one that I believe in and put into practice with what I do be it on the design end of things or the framebuilding/craftsmanship end of things. I feel as though that by giving back at my own comfort and expertise level, I'm helping to contribute to the larger story and passing along knowledge that was passed along to me. Naturally, this approach is not for everyone and there are some things I hold close, but I feel as though by giving back and providing expertise where I can, something good is bound to come out of it. If anything, it is rewarding to see the outcome of others success.

Agreeing. If you own it, give it away.
PS That ink goes to your site. I was hoping to find an NPR page.

[crumpton]

Hey 44, i hear you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a clam. Some guys know that if you bring me an actual issue, I help. Come and ask me some broad topic like most do without even trying to figure it out, then I have nothing to say. What I expect is that people are at least making an effort. You know what I mean?

With regards to sharing knowledge, helping others and passing along skills, I found this interview from today's Diane Rehm show very interesting and relative to parts of our discussion here. Give a listen here.

The concept of giving and sharing knowledge without expecting anything in return is one that I believe in and put into practice with what I do be it on the design end of things or the framebuilding/craftsmanship end of things. I feel as though that by giving back at my own comfort and expertise level, I'm helping to contribute to the larger story and passing along knowledge that was passed along to me. Naturally, this approach is not for everyone and there are some things I hold close, but I feel as though by giving back and providing expertise where I can, something good is bound to come out of it. If anything, it is rewarding to see the outcome of others success.

[fortyfour]

To all: apologies. For some reason the above link sends you to my website? HERE IS THE LINK for the Diane Rehm show episode...

[fortyfour]

@Crumpton: I hear you as well. I'm speaking more of just the concept of sharing knowledge but just to be clear, I am not directing this at anyone in particular, but just addressing the larger topic of the act of giving back or sharing knowledge. Especially with regards to the craft of bicycle frame building. There's no "major" for anyone to check off and go after in college. It's also not a craft that has an active means of apprenticeship or large scale, long term trade school (with the exception of UBI) where the craft is taught. It is a craft that requires many different skills all stacked on one another where the end result is to make a bicycle. So in the absence of this, I support the actions of others sharing and passing along information as I believe it collectively lifts all. But like anything, it's one thing to talk about it and another to actually do it. And when I am sharing info, like you, I am expecting a certain level of commitment, and effort on the other individuals part. I've found the act of giving back to be a skill all in itself.

[david]

i'm no expert when it comes to brazing, welding, geometry, spoke tension, etc, etc.
and there are plenty on this forum whose knowledge of the sport far exceeds mine.
truth is, i find myself mostly, and gratefully, taking advice rather than offering it.
so when this thread popped up, i said to myself "wow, now here's a topic i can actually contribute to."
what surprises me is how dismissive some of the responses have been to the concept of brand building.
guys, branding works.
if done correctly, it can help build and grow businesses and categories.
if you want no part of it and simply want to let your work speak for itself - keep doing what you're doing.
you're pure and your work says it all. we get it.
to anybody else who'd like to discuss the topic further, i'm all ears. or eyes, i guess.

[Dorman]

i'm no expert when it comes to brazing, welding, geometry, spoke tension, etc, etc.
and there are plenty on this forum whose knowledge of the sport far exceeds mine.
truth is, i find myself mostly, and gratefully, taking advice rather than offering it.
so when this thread popped up, i said to myself "wow, now here's a topic i can actually contribute to."
what surprises me is how dismissive some of the responses have been to the concept of brand building.
guys, branding works.
if done correctly, it can help build and grow businesses and categories.
if you want no part of it and simply want to let your work speak for itself - keep doing what you're doing.
you're pure and your work says it all. we get it.
to anybody else who'd like to discuss the topic further, i'm all ears. or eyes, i guess.

Hey, you've got my attention. This has been a fascinating thread other than the show and tell diversion. I do what I do. I've had several guys approach me all excited to build them mountain bikes and I had to tell them I don't build mountain bikes. I ride one a little, but not enough to "own" it. I know I build things well, but I don't think I am very good at marketing. I'm all eyes (and ears of course).

[TomW]

I don't work in branding personally but come from an advertising family. My mother is the worldwide planning director for Grey (you will have heard of it if you watch Mad Men) and my sister has followed her into the business. Effectively my childhood was paid by and based around brands. It is something she manifestly and utterly believes in and I was saturated in it from a young age. It remains the basis of most of our family discussions (as my own profession is far too boring to discuss) and I've read hundreds of books about it as I find it theoretically fascinating.

In summary, a brand is simply: product + value.

You can improve just one side of the equation or you can improve both. Conversely you can make a piece of crap and try to market it up to give value to the customer which is out of all proportion to the quality of product. Even if you "do" great product that does not automatically mean people feel (and brands are all about feel) they receive added value from that product. It is all the intangibles which are derived from the experience with the product which give that value.

As CFTD says some people on the thread have been dismissive of branding. However that can actually be part of their brand. For those at the top of their game the act of teaching or passing on their knowledge can also be part of their brand as well as being a solid act of community.

From a branding perspective the individual framebuilding industry is a whole different ballgame from Nike. As an individual framebuilder you also have to think about what is sustainable and what you can live with for a brand. And also what you can afford. Say you are the greatest brazer on the planet technically but you are a fat old dude who has never ridden a bike. Whilst you could try to add value by creating a (fake) story about your bona fides as a rider and your racing experience it is a risky prospect. The focus should be on the technical skills. Alternatively Nike is able to sell offshored shoes previously made by child labourers at the cheapest possible cost as it is coated by Wieden+Kennedy's (expensive) magic.

So if you have a great story out there which you can believe in why not put it out there? It does no harm. It probably does branding good. The cost of this added value is ever lower due to the internet (blog, use Twitter, submit to bike sites etc.).

Finally, the idea that the pie is a limited size and by helping others you make your own slice smaller: that's mercantilism. It went out in the 16th century. The pie can always be grown. In fact it has been over the past ten years and, from the outside, it looks like that is partly due to the collaboration within the framebuilding industry.

[e-RICHIE]

David - Screw opinions and personality conflicts. If you have something to add, please do. I don't have too much invested in this, but my agenda on this thread is connected to framebuilders talking about themselves, using all the tools available, and finding ways to make a career easier to attain. Branding, the way brand strategists may be trained, works best when the product or commodity is dialed, yet needs some finessing for public consumption. We (the niche) are a combination of that (some can do it all) along with folks who are outside the bubble (they can make frames but can't sell them OR they can't make frames but somehow they get sold despite this). I think one sidebar to the subject is that you can't help someone who isn't versed in the trade until he is. Then you, or someone who does what you do, can add value to the program.

I wrestle with branding (or promotion, or advertising, or ...) versus manipulation. Atmo if the crafts-person is eager yet new, he should be working at getting skilled rather than getting re-wrapped so that a buzz can be felt around the web.

I would love your thoughts on this. Thanks.

i'm no expert when it comes to brazing, welding, geometry, spoke tension, etc, etc.
and there are plenty on this forum whose knowledge of the sport far exceeds mine.
truth is, i find myself mostly, and gratefully, taking advice rather than offering it.
so when this thread popped up, i said to myself "wow, now here's a topic i can actually contribute to."
what surprises me is how dismissive some of the responses have been to the concept of brand building.
guys, branding works.
if done correctly, it can help build and grow businesses and categories.
if you want no part of it and simply want to let your work speak for itself - keep doing what you're doing.
you're pure and your work says it all. we get it.
to anybody else who'd like to discuss the topic further, i'm all ears. or eyes, i guess.

[fortyfour]

@David: Back on topic of "Branding" - From the design side of things, this is actually what my specialty was/is and what I have aided many brands very small and very large. From designing brand platforms for start ups, redesigning the face of existing company's appearances, product, et all or refining others and giving them the necessary tools to market and promote themselves. I've seen first hand how a really well thought out brand platform and a plan for taking that business to the next level can work.

On the flip side, working towards and finally running my own frame shop, it's been exciting and very fulfilling to have that proverbial "shoe on the other foot", where I am now my own client per say. The story was always there, but to actually put it into words, design and formulating my own brand's ethos is challenging. And I suppose that is a good point to make: This stuff does not happen over night and it does not come easily. It requires a lot of thought, planning and constant dialogue. What works for one, may not necessarily work for another.

Another point I'd like to raise (and reiterate what TomW states) about the whole branding thing: It's up to you, the business owner, to decide how far you want to take it and only you can decide what your time/budget/expertise allows. The big difference between now and say 10 years ago are the availability of free tools at a business owners disposal and the networks that they can potentially tap into. Like anything, they are all tools and you need to decide what ones work for you, which ones you feel comfortable with and which ones make sense for your own business and goals and how they fit into your plan moving forward.

One thing holds constant and that is personal involvement. Not all the facebook likes and flickr views in the world equates to a sale nor does it get someone to pick up the phone and make the call. I see the most returns when I meet riders out on the trail, ride with them, attend events, help out with those events, participate in shows, talk to people and give back to the cycling community in some fashion (I haven't even scratched the surface honestly). But the more I do that, the more the word gets out and those personal interactions are the ones that hold the biggest returns not only for me, but for getting the word out on just how "right" a custom bicycle can be.

[Mark Kelly]

<snip>where I am now my own client per say. <snip>

Pleeeease; it's per se meaning "of, in or by itself" in Latin. You have misspelt and misused it: I think you meant "so to speak".

When I'm not picking nits, I am busy admiring your ability to project a brand image. Finding that this is your area is no surprise.

BTW I think the faux government "Department of ...." booklets are really well done.

[Mike Mcdermid]

some are better looking,

thanks !!!

[Mike Mcdermid]

The more i read and reflect on this thread the more it brings home ,you can have technically the best product in the world but unless you hit that educated crowd or have some kind of oh ah web presence
and engage with the public you are indeed sunk, why should you share that knowledge, you can have a lot invested in it in time and R&D and bolstering your brand, as a note I dont think like that!!!but im just putting the question out there, someone sends me an email and I answer their questions all the info is out there if you know where to look anyway.

But what about the end game do you bring a potential competitior up to your level of technical prowess only to watch them run away with your market or just ride it for as long as it will last, as far as I'm concerned after the next generation of composite frame tech thats coming I'm pretty stuck for ideas . But this is what makes a lot of the guys on here unique, "the art side of it ,I liken it to that fudge factor of artisan CREATIVITY WHICH CANT BE TAUGHT AND JUST IS? does that make sense?

Some folks are just gifted in that way and i dont think branding is the thing that sells those guys products