On Branding atmo -

[steve garro]

(1) Of course, I don't think anyone will disagree. But even in such case, "branding" a bad product will be a problem for the builder, for example, with the great pictures of bad work as you said, those pictures will make very visible to an educated eye/customer how bad product is that, and go elsewhere to find a good product. So, let's anyone do whatever they want, even if it's "wrong" as it happens in real life,

(2) you can say you're incredibly good at something, speak loud about how fast you're on the bike, fantasy with how many supermodels you have been with, adventures in the jungle, survival skills, Bach's ciaccona player...

(3) it might happen some people will believe you, but in the end reality will rise, sooner than later, and you'll get to the place you deserve, or even worst, as you've been "selling" a too high fantasy, falling will hurt.

(4)I think branding is not really something you should plan, but something it will happen as a consecuence of your work and the person behind it.

I hate to break it apart like this, but..............
(1) the problem with this supposition is that many people think they know more then they do, or in Redneck "another shiny lure for the suckerfish" add in a vocal know-it-all and it's 100x worse.
(2) It ain't braggin' if you can pull it off. Some did their branding and research *first* and that's how they ended up where they were - the "Tragics" - you think I believed this is where I would be as a 21yr old at my 1st bike shop job?
Should have stuck with the supermodels and the ciaccona - what ever that is. Sounds like a pasta dish?
(3) We have some builders around who can definately expand on this theme.
(4) Most people here are so far on the FNG side that branding isn't, or shouldn't, eclipse the time at the bench.
To brand something, first you need something worth buying as pointed out in 1, 2 & 3.
- Garro.

[e-RICHIE]

The issue will always be that there are no real standards to measure excellence.

Well for me client staifaction ranks 1st with mine a 2nd.
Although I guess if it doesn't satisfy me they don't get it.
- Garro.

I meant that in a comparative sense atmo. Magazine Top-Ten Bicycle lists notwithstanding, the industry, trade, niche, craft, and even the clientele, etc etc, has no way of assigning a pecking order to what we do. That's why my statement was followed by the words, "So, you have to do the work for yourself (or, for its own sake)." Staying detached = Priceless.

[Amaro Bikes]

I hate to break it apart like this, but..............
(1) the problem with this supposition is that many people think they know more then they do, or in Redneck "another shiny lure for the suckerfish" add in a vocal know-it-all and it's 100x worse.
(2) It ain't braggin' if you can pull it off. Some did their branding and research *first* and that's how they ended up where they were - the "Tragics" - you think I believed this is where I would be as a 21yr old at my 1st bike shop job?
Should have stuck with the supermodels and the ciaccona - what ever that is. Sounds like a pasta dish?
(3) We have some builders around who can definately expand on this theme.
(4) Most people here are so far on the FNG side that branding isn't, or shouldn't, eclipse the time at the bench.
To brand something, first you need something worth buying as pointed out in 1, 2 & 3.
- Garro.

Steve, I know lots of things are lost in written messagges, so just to make it clear, I agree with all your points, specially with (4).

Anyway, I can't either think how could any of us caterpillars argue against any of you butterflies, just take advantadge of your generous sharing of knowledge based in experience. But as I said some other time in previous threads, one of the main problems of us "internet generation" is we want "results" now, without realizing how long does it take to cook a proper cake. Good thing though is cake after cake you begin to realize the nice ones does take much more than just an oven, and reset your anxious behaviour into a much more paused way where any minute practicing or reading/hearing the long lasting masters is a minute of joy as important (or more) than the possible resulting cake.

I just wish I had this kind of mind 4 years ago when I took the file/torch for the first time, but I guess learning is a process wich not only applies to the techinique in itself, but also into how you approach the understanding and the way of doing things.

I can fully understand how any experienced master can be upset with the repetitive questions from newcomers wanting to be already masters through some kind of mystic shortcuts (wich does not exist, no matter how many times you ask for them), and this would be probably one of the main filters when deciding to give away, if you see that this help is going to end up in a proper place or just abandoned in some kind of mind litter, rejected as it's not the mystic shortcut or the desired answer by the receiver.

[jerk]

e-richie gives good thread.

i try to not do anything in the public sphere without thinking about what it will do to further my personal brand. it's kinda the point of any and all public interactions if you're a somewhat grounded non-damaged person.

[steve garro]

one of the main problems of us "internet generation" is we want "results" now, without realizing how long does it take to cook a proper cake. Good thing though is cake after cake you begin to realize the nice ones does take much more than just an oven, and reset your anxious behaviour into a much more paused way where any minute practicing or reading/hearing the long lasting masters is a minute of joy as important (or more) than the possible resulting cake.

Well, having spent a few years as a scratch baker in my youth...................
You need to know if it's humid you need more binder.
You need to know if it's dry to add more eggs or milk.
Throw the timer away - it's not done until it's done.
How did I learn?
I listened to the oldtimers.
(Who, BTW all learned to bake at Arcosanti, Paolo Solieri RIP)
- Garro.

[steve garro]

And, oddly enough, at some point people start doing it FOR you: Steve Garro - warsztat, kunszt i ręce mistrza
- Garro.

[fortyfour]

@Crumpton: My apologies if I misunderstood Edoz as I DID NOT intend for that to be "look at what I did". So if it did, more apologies. The primary subject of this thread has been branding and the application of it with relation to the frame building community, so I took Edoz's question as "have I ever helped other builders with their brand?" The answer is yes. I've also invested significant time helping large portions of regional builders collectively build their trade recognition with the greater cycling community by helping to build separate brands for small regional shows. Some of this has been paid service work and some of this has been designed complimentary, no fees, no strings attached, all rights transferred.

But to answer your question directly in regards to helping other builders and sharing information, knowledge and technique: wholeheartedly yes. I feel since others have given so much information to me along the years freely that I have a responsibility to continue in that spirit of giving and give back to the community that gave so much. I do pick and choose what I share in terms of technique, and skills as others did before me. Some things I hold close that I feel make my bikes special while others I see only as pure, raw craft that forms the foundation or launch pad if you will where the next step is to use that skill to make a bicycle.

[fortyfour]

I'd also like to add that there are 3 conversations going on here, and I write this with the best intentions:

1. Branding as it relates to the frame builder, who also happens to be a business owner and how a tight brand package can really elevate that business giving it a higher level of professionalism.

2. The act of giving knowledge, teaching techniques and the free flow of information between established frame builders and those same frame builders passing knowledge to new builders be it hobby and/or part time.

3. Somewhere in time and space there is a magic frame number for pure legitimacy in the "cult" of frame building.

As I said above, the original thread is on branding, but there have developed a couple offshoots because of the conversation on branding and the "appearance" of legitimacy a tight brand package can lend especially to the new builder which I get a sense makes some established builders slighted especially when that new builders skills are not up to a level of collectively accepted competence and they are subsequently receiving press through a lens of perception. This sounds like the elephant in the room and perhaps needs its own thread.

But to address these three conversations, first, I think if you are at a point in your life where you feel as though you have the skills and expertise to start your own business, you should have the necessary tools to do it right. A tight brand story only enhances that business's professional look towards a path to legitimacy. However, even before you start a business, you also should take on the responsibility that if you are offering a product and service, that you FIRST have the skills necessary to actually offer those products and services to a certain level of competence. Otherwise all the branding in the world isn't going to mask the fact that your techniques are unsound. The opposite holds true of a business with superior product and a half-baked brand story. Take on the responsibility of elevating your business to the next level before you're deemed irrelevant by the customer base because of it. Your superior product only deserves a drop dead TIGHT logo and word mark. And that's just for starters..

For those who listened to this show, the research discussed ironically points towards those individuals who share knowledge, are very giving and lift the collective knowledge base are actually, on average, ones who are most successful. I found the discussion very poignant and I have always felt contrary to popular belief that sharing knowledge and expertise is bad. Like I said above and earlier, I feel it's my own responsibility to give back to a community that has freely given so much to me. Others can choose to do that or not and that is acceptable. It's also up to you what information you freely give out and what you choose to hold tight. Both sides of the coin are just good business. But since there is no formal path to receiving a frame building "license", the waters can get muddied from what I have been hearing for that path to legitimacy within the "cult" as I dubbed it. For myself, it's been a life's path (I'm now 38) of seeking out skilled individuals to learn the separate pieces of the craft by which the end task is to make a bicycle. In addition, it's taken me over 10 years just to get to the point where I feel confident to register 44 Bikes with the State of NH, purchase product liability insurance, register my trademark with the USPTO, then offer custom bicycles for paying clients and another lifetime ahead of me to continually hone those skills required.

As consumers, it's our responsibility to educate ourselves on what's good and what not and what's legit and what's not. As builders of bicycles, it's paramount to have your sh!t together both from a competence stand point, AND from a business standpoint. Part of that is putting your best foot forward in terms of branding and what your public face looks like today, may need to be changed and updated in the future to progress as a successful business to stay relevant.

[MarkC]

Competency

Technical competency of building a frame that is safe and puts everything in the right place. This competency is without question the foundation that must exist before a durable brand can be developed.

Business competency is different. Managing your brand and your brand's image is part of being competent at the business side. Long term this will be as important to your business as the technical piece. You don't have to like it but being good at it has rewards.

I think one of the most important things you can do with branding is to develop trust. As a customer I need to trust that the builder is going to produce a technically competent product. When I send a deposit I have to trust that a frame will come as promised. In a competitive market that is not well differentiated (e.g. "excellence" is not easily defined) then your brand is your word and a major point of differentiation. Ignoring an opportunity to develop your brand along these lines seems an opportunity missed.


Have to say this is one of the most fascinating VS threads to date.

[crumpton]

44 is correct, this has gone at least 3 diff directions. a caveat of internet forum discussions. in fact i am quite sure much of what is said in this thread will be misunderstood by many and quite possibly damaging to ones brand...

i for one have miss understood and incorrectly questioned and answered too much already.

back to the shop...

[steve garro]

I'd also like to add that there are 3 conversations going on here, and I write this with the best intentions:

1. Branding as it relates to the frame builder, who also happens to be a business owner and how a tight brand package can really elevate that business giving it a higher level of professionalism.

2. The act of giving knowledge, teaching techniques and the free flow of information between established frame builders and those same frame builders passing knowledge to new builders be it hobby and/or part time.

3. Somewhere in time and space there is a magic frame number for pure legitimacy in the "cult" of frame building.

As I said above, the original thread is on branding.

I think they are all on topic, actually.
- Placing your branding on a non existant knowledge base (# of units built or not built)
- Actually having knowledge to share, and doing so, is for me at least, a form of branding (I'm really not THAT nice :) )
- Branding from the strictest sense Ala Coca-Cola or ***** big company - Ad Guy stuff.
I drew my logo!
At UBI Mike DeSalvo told the class "you can have all the stickers and t-shirts you want, but if you can't fill the orders or don't have orders is doesn't mean anything"
I took that to heart, right there.
- Garro.

[e-RICHIE]

As threads go, this one definitely delivered on the drift options. That's cool.

My original thought was about folks opening themselves up and letting others know what they think, how they feel, and who they are (some overlap there atmo). It didn't go into the graphic design or branding (as the industry thinks of it) elements of what we do. It also had nothing to do with levels of experience. I guess it had to do with confidence more than anything else.

That said, I see a real lack of experience when the complete range of commercial framebuilding's feet is held to the fire. I accept that the market has spoken and those writing the checks are okay sending them to those filling the orders. But I also think that most cats appear lacking in ability to get messages out. Many never update blogs they started, or FAQ pages on their sites, or related places you'd expect to see changes. One could say they're too busy brazing frames to tend to the viral stuff - and I am sure that's the case with some. I hope I am wrong, but my hunch is that many are week to week/month to month type of businesses and we're in the middle of another shakeout. So, in starting a chat like this, I thought if we can get some guys more comfortable being in their own skin, and take a chance on being more emotive or proactive about their individual brands, it would help.

Some are not gonna make the cut. Some cats are hardwired to be glass-half-empty types. Many have too little experience in fabrication and design. Anything that makes them think or try harder, even if it's on a dare, could be a good thing.

'Would love to hear responses to this.

[Mike Mcdermid]

As threads go, this one definitely delivered on the drift options. That's cool.

My original thought was about folks opening themselves up and letting others know what they think,

Job DONE?? you got the folks talking!!

[Todd Mosley]

Many never update blogs they started, or FAQ pages on their sites, or related places you'd expect to see changes.

Now I'll add a 4th dimension to the conversation. All the things you just mentioned are key strategies in Search Engine Optimization (SEO). Something e-Richie appears have mastered, whether you set out to do it or it was intuitive. I've gone to a seminar put on by these people and it was enlightening: Get Noticed, Get Found. It's targeted towards law firms but the same principles apply to any business.

[steve garro]

Now I'll add a 4th dimension to the conversation. All the things you just mentioned are key strategies in Search Engine Optimization (SEO). Something e-Richie appears have mastered, whether you set out to do it or it was intuitive. I've gone to a seminar put on by these people and it was enlightening: Get Noticed, Get Found. It's targeted towards law firms but the same principles apply to any business.

I like to think of it as "Show Signs of Life"
- Garro.

[edoz]

I took Edoz's question as "have I ever helped other builders with their brand?" The answer is yes.

That's exactly what I was asking. I've built a bunch of frames, enough to be able to build a really good one in a reasonable amount of time. When I step outside and look at Edoz through the window, I'm not sure I see anything that would make someone who doesn't know me want one of my frames. It's either learn how to step it up, or continue on my current "friends of friends" marketing plan until I get to Kevin Bacon and it all goes viral

[Mark Walberg]

.....
I think one of the most important things you can do with branding is to develop trust. As a customer I need to trust that the builder is going to produce a technically competent product......

This is the target of branding. The interesting discussion about the source of branding discussed on this thread is thought provoking indeed, but trust is the real target of branding. Through some combination of doing good work and good communication and marketing, the bottom line is getting the message across that you are competent and confident that you will make a great example of whatever it is that you do, preferably in a timely manner.
-Mark Walberg

[-HvA-]

Now I'll add a 4th dimension to the conversation. All the things you just mentioned are key strategies in Search Engine Optimization (SEO). Something e-Richie appears have mastered, whether you set out to do it or it was intuitive. I've gone to a seminar put on by these people and it was enlightening: Get Noticed, Get Found. It's targeted towards law firms but the same principles apply to any business.

Since this applies to my area of expertise (web development), be very careful who you outsource your SEO to. If there's any area where a lot of bullshit and snakeoils salesmen it's SEO. The field itself has evolved a lot over the years, and a lot of the more spammy techniques are penalized by google. My advice to builders on a budget: get a wordpress site that you host under your own domain. It's pretty SEO friendly to begin with and won't hold you back. In the beginning there's more important aspects to web presence to direct your attention to.

Sorry for yet another thread drift, but this is something I've seen too many people waste too much money on.

[David Tollefson]

I can't believe the amount of spam I get to my blog advertising SEO services...

[-HvA-]

I can't believe the amount of spam I get to my blog advertising SEO services...

You can spend an afternoon reading google's own seo guide, sign up for a forum or two and declare yourself an "expert". Don't trust anyone who only does SEO and nothing else unless they're an agency you can't afford ;)