consumers: how much does frame price influence your initial thoughts on quality

[steve garro]

and why? the de salvo thread got me to thinking: some said that they thought that his base price was too little. why? what influences your perceptions of "quality?" do you go the extra mile to learn what is under the paint? interweb reports? friend's recomendations? you can buy a TIG welded Rock Lobster or a fillet brazed Curtlo for great prices - SUPER low considering each of these builder's pedigrees.........what makes a builders prices "fair" "resonable" "low" or what? just for two wild card examples - what, in your perceptions makes a pegorreti worth more then a de salvo? both TIG steel, both really no frills under the paint, just great TIG bikes {don't get me wrong, i have nothing but utmost respect for all builders i've mentioned in this thread - it's PERCIVED VALUE to the customer and how they see the price tag as "fair" that i'm just wondering about} please discuss......... steve.

[Saab2000]

I am a consumer of fairly high-end bikes, but most of mine have been used bikes so my opinion may not be valid.

But I am getting a brand new Zanconato in the next couple months or so. Reading what other folks wrote about their experiences, as well as visiting the blog, were what sold me. A bonus was what I considered to be a pretty low price, relatively speaking.

There are other builders who charge more and others who charge less. I guess that anything over $2000 is probably past my limit, but that's based on my personal finances not what I think of a frame's 'quality'. Price was a factor in my decision, but I assumed the quality would be more or less the same as if I had bought from another 'name' builder.

Over at the Serotta Forum there is much debate on value, whether perceived or real. Serottas frames are very expensive, as we all know. One of mine has been worth the price it would have cost new. It is my CIII which even though it is a bit large for me, does allow me to hit some good contact points. And it rides and handles great. Another, my 57L CSI has been worth what I paid for it used, but otherwise causes no spark of passion in me. Based on my impressions of it I would not be inspired by Serotta if it had been my first Serotta. Fortunately, it wasn't so my opinion of that brand remains high.

Which one has better value to me? The CIII of course.

But the question here is of the value/quality relationship. It is my opinion that the quality of most builders who are well-known in the world of very high-end bikes (which is what we are dealing with here) is beyond reproach. I suppose that some of you builders may be able to judge the quality of your peers, but I am not able to make that judgement.

Is a Zanconato that costs less than $2000 lower quality than a Sachs or Spectrum or Kirk that costs more than $2000? I doubt it and that thought never entered into my thought process when looking to buy my next machine.

[Saab2000]

BTW, I think part of the reason folks are willing to pay more for a Pegoretti is that there is the idea out there that geometry and understanding of balance, etc just doesn't get better than his. If he was the go-to guy for Indurain and other TdF stars why wouldn't he be able to charge a high price.

Win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Works for a lot of folks.

That is part of the value equation. Knowing you're getting the best, be it materials or ultra-clean welding or brazing or painting or be that an understanding of what makes a race bike a race bike.

[tai rui]

I've gone the custom route 8 times and I have many other peg bikes. "Value" for me is nothing more than how much I like the bike and how much I am willing to shell out. I could care less about the rest of the world's perception of what I ride and how much I spent for it.

When it comes to custom I look for the following things:

-Builder's willingness to talk on the phone, listen to what I am saying and answer my email promptly.
-Whether or not we "click". I can tell within 5 minutes of discussion whether I want to go forward.
-When I'm ready for a new frame I think about the last process and whether I want to do it a second or third time. Of the builders I have worked with, I've been a repeat customer with one and would go back to two of the others again. There are several who will never have to worry about my money darkening their door a second time.
-Price - Doesn't matter a whit, but I do operate in the space of "obscenity thresholds." They're very simple and I do not cross them. ~3500 for a frame, ~1000 for wheels, 6 months lead time. Above that, I simply can't bring myself to spend the money or wait.
-Reputation - I read the web and I see how purchases have gone for other people.

When it comes to peg bikes - if it's below my threshold, it's attractive and it fits - if I want it bad enough, I'll buy it.

The things that prompt or restrain me from spending money in both cases is whether I feel I am getting a bike that is intellignetly thought out, built well and is appealing to my eyeballs. And whether or not it's a hassle to get (PITA builder/seller, lead times, etc.)

[bigbill]

IMHO, you are paying for the experience of the builder. RS and others have unquestionable pedigrees while the newer builders are still developing their craft and reputation. The bonus builders are the ones who gained their experience working under a "master" before striking out on their own. IMO, this is where you find the real treasure.

If I pay more than $2k for a custom steel frame, I expect that the fit and finish be perfect. Less than that, I expect it to fit and look good.

[rphetteplace]

There are some truly wild pricing structures out there. Last I heard Della Santa was +-$2K frame, for a guy that's built world championship bikes that's amazing. Same with Landshark. John built a Giro winning frame and you can still get a full fillet brazed frame for around $1700. Slawta's fillets are as good as there are in the business imho. I think that John has produced more custom frames then anybody else in the US in a 1 man shop today. He is prolific.

There are guys on the other end of the sprectrum with just a handful of bikes on their resume getting big bucks for frames cuz as Swoop said so well they "have a good flickr site"

You also can have the best lug/fillet/tig work out there and if you have shit paint jobs/color schemes builders aren't doing themselves any favors.

Peg is able to charge premium prices due to reputation and pedigree. He's got a who's who of pros that he's built bikes for that is tough to argue with. Other part of his magic are his paint schemes which love or hate them invoke a response from everyone. With such a wide range of paint from Luigino to Resporium pain there is something for everyone.

[mike p]

I think when you get into the upper tier of builders it comes down to matching a builders "style" (geometry,fit,finish and overall look) to yours. If you can find a builder that you match up with for 2k less than another than thats what I'm doing. I really don't think theres a big difference in quality between builders like DeSalvo, Della Santa, Slawta all sell frames for 2k or less and builders who sell frames for 3k to 5k.
It can also depend on what a bike is to you. Is it a tool to win a race? A fine work of art? A means of transportation? Or maybe a combo of these and many others. If your just in for a race bike a caad 9 will save you 2 or 3k over many high end bikes and won't make any difference in race results.
I love race bikes but also fine craftsmanship, unfortunately I am of modest means. Fortunately there are builders like DeSalvo, Della Santa, Slawta and others, so I can have my cake and eat it to.

Mike

[Too Tall]

You are not buying a car!!! This is a bespoke item and the price in part reflects a relationship between youself and the builder.

What affects the price what is the price? It is whatever a builder decides is necessary to deliver to you a great bike and keep the lights on. This is not difficult.

FWIIW Nobody except Mike Desalov has any business speculating his pricing and all the more because he SAID why and what this is about.

[EnginCycles]

to deliver to you a great bike and keep the lights on.

GETS IT!

Everyone deserves a home, family (if you want it), health insurance, vacation and food on the table. Nobody should work for free or lack comfort.

I like Mike but prices should never go down. only up. That is how business works.

Cheers,
Drew

[rphetteplace]

GETS IT!

Everyone deserves a home, family (if you want it), health insurance, vacation and food on the table. Nobody should work for free or lack comfort.

I like Mike but prices should never go down. only up. That is how business works.

Cheers,
Drew

I agree with TT that it really isn't anyone's business imho what Mike or anyone else decides to sell bikes for. It's his gig not yours. With all due respect I don't think people should be down on Mike for giving people a cool product at an unbelievable price.

[swoop]

people aren't down on him. its the opposite. this has a chance to get really distorted here.. lets not twist it... just cuz its online.

[EnginCycles]

I agree with TT that it really isn't anyone's business imho what Mike or anyone else decides to sell bikes for. It's his gig not yours. With all due respect I don't think people should be down on Mike for giving people a cool product at an unbelievable price.

Not downing him. Just saying IMO how business works. I think he has got good things out of the idea. I assume he has a plan and it will work. I can say it would sink me if i made that many bikes for little or no profit. one or two is one thing but those #'s are a bit more than that.

The interweb strikes again.

-Drew

[pmac]

I'm pretty new to the world of custom bikes. To me the cost is, up to a point, secondary to what I can learn about the builder and his work. I don't think I know anyone (other than people in the LBS) who has a custom bike, and I don't ride with a large group of people who might be a good source for info, so I have to rely on what I can find on the web. Even one of the less expensive custom bikes is still a lot of money, and I'd like to feel confident that I'm going to get something that I'm going to enjoy more than a Trek or Specialized, etc and will fit me well since sending it back if I'm not happy is presumably not an option. This means that I'm heavily biased towards someone who gets a lot of positive feedback on sites like this, and who has a longer history of making frames. Whether the frame costs 2K vs 3K probably won't be the deciding factor.

I would be very interested to know how people usually make this choice. Based on another thread here it seems like the NABS? show generates sales, but I'd be surprised if most buyers attend that or a similar show. Do most people who buy a custom frame do so because of a recommendation by a friend? From riding someone else's bike? I can't imagine many take the Jack Brunk approach, which seems to be equivalent to a series of long term rentals of personalized bikes - gotta admire that way of doing it, and each 'rental' is probably cheaper per week than the CC program.

Paul

[e-RICHIE]

there's a lesson here atmo.

[Saab2000]

Not downing him. Just saying IMO how business works. I think he has got good things out of the idea. I assume he has a plan and it will work. I can say it would sink me if i made that many bikes for little or no profit. one or two is one thing but those #'s are a bit more than that.

The interweb strikes again.

-Drew

Business is a bitch. I work in the airlines and there are exactly zero guarantees in my business. Prices is absolute king and nothing else matters. I know the world of high-end custom bikes is very different and price doesn't matter to a lot of customers.

The business of the high-end bike business is different from a lot of other businesses. It is far less price sensitive than much of the rest of the world.

I wish there were guarantees about food on the table, and shelter and health insurance and vacation. But in the real world of business those guarantees aren't there and if the flying public cared about these things they wouldn't go to websites that compare the prices of 5 airlines going between city pairs and choose the absolute cheapest option.

Ultimately a product is worth what people are willing to pay for it and that is the nature of any business. Nobody cares that Wal-Mart or Target or most other retailers in the US don't pay living wages or offer health care benefits when they are standing in the store comparing prices.

Some builders market themselves well and can charge more. The bike world is just a different animal.

[doofus]

price tells me a lot about how many units a builder wants to make each year, and how they want to position themselves in the market -- and that's about it.

my lugged rock lobster was 2 grand for the frame/fork...low, considering what a nice lugged unit goes for

i'd be very happy with one of his TIG AL units...I'd be very happy with a TIG AL from Spooky...or a unit from Proletariat...all good shit.

no fucking way I'd part with 2grand for a lugged frame from some newbie with a website and a business plan, straight out of UBI.

on the other hand, if I had the cash to get a sachs, I'd be on the list.

[JackB]

Too me it's about CHEMISTRY between the builder and the new buyer. Price is what it is. If there's no bond between the two then it's just a frame.

[hansolo758]

If I understood the original question, it went something like, "Do you think a more expensive frame is necessarily a better quality frame?"

For me, the answer is "No." As has been explored in other threads, here and across the hall, it depends on how you define quality. To me "quality" encompasses the sturdiness of the construction, the alignment and placement of items such as brake bosses and bottle mounts, how well head tubes and BB shells were faced and chased, how well you fit on the bike, and whether the builder understood what you were looking for in a frame, i.e., if you got the braze-ons you wanted or the frame weight you had expected (if frame weight was important to you). Finally, esthetics do play a part. For all this, a certain base price, and some variation around a mean figure, is understandable.

But the cost of a frame varies considerably beyond that mean base price. What does the "extra" give you, assuming it's not because you wanted stainless steel, hand-polished lugs or other esoterica? Part of the "extra" is indeed because of the reputation of the builder, which translates into better cachet or better resale value when it comes time to sell. You may be in part supporting very worthwhile things the builder does, such as sponsoring junior racing. But the "extra" beyond the base as I've defined it, isn't necessarily a reflection of "quality" as I see it. A Toyota is an excellent quality car, which would serve you well as transportation and for most things you'd want of a car. A Lexus, on the other hand, isn't necessarily better quality but does offer more cachet, and more luxury and more gadgets. It isn't that one is necessarily better than the other -- it's what's important to the buyer.

[Z3c]

While I do think there is a perceived connection between price and quality, I think a lot of frame buyers are looking for something unique as part of the deal. Also, one needs to evaluate the final product, not the base price since some builders include things as standard and others do not. I would imagine having DeSalvo build a lugged, pin striped, steel forked beauty would not end up that much cheaper than a Sachs. IMHO, this is pretty similar to cars; ask your average person if a BMW is better than a Toyota and the answer will be yes. Next, ask them why; they will probably not have a substantial answer. I have a Della Santa and a Vanilla; I paid $1400 for the DS in '04 and it rides great. Not sure the Vanilla is any "better". I wanted a DS simply out of homage to his place in American frame building history; I am a product of the LeMond era.. I wanted a Vanilla out of respect for what Sacha does in terms of different paint schemes and subtle bling.. Not very rational but then this is not a rational issue for me; it is pure emotion. I could do the riding I do on a Roubaix Comp just as well.

Next on my list? Ironically, as I am moving to Tucson in June I may buy something from an Az builder such as the OP. Want to see some neat frames? Go look at LaSuprema frames(www.edsbikes.us); this guy is building all over the map and seems pretty interesting. I will visit his shop for sure and see what the in-person vibe feels like. Framesets start at $1300..

IMHO, this is all about perception=reality; most of us consumers don't really know enough to truly assess quality. From what I understand, paint hides the truth if need be..

Scott

[Blue Jays]

"...on the other hand, if I had the cash to get a Sachs, I'd be on the list..."

Well, that and the August 15, 2008 build list closure date for new orders. ;-)