The XC Skiing thread

[jamesand]

Yo Caleb, assuming classical technique how can I better keep my head and neck up and back instead of that forward lean(from the waist) we all do when we start to get tired?

Looking straight down at the trail/track right in front is bad.

This is probably related to not driving from the hips as well.

Any good tips from you?

[caleb]

Yo Caleb, assuming classical technique how can I better keep my head and neck up and back instead of that forward lean(from the waist) we all do when we start to get tired?

Looking straight down at the trail/track right in front is bad.

This is probably related to not driving from the hips as well.

Any good tips from you?

It's tough to say exactly without seeing you in person, and I'd recommend trying to find someone locally to look at your technique.

That said, I try to look about 10 yards down the trail while maintaining a "falling forward" position. One way to check your position and weight transfer is to find a long, shallow hill (more than a false flat, less than a steep climb), take off your poles, and ski up it. This is a good general drill, but it will reveal bad body position right away in the form of slipping. Assuming your skis are fit and waxed correctly, you'll be able to kick up the hill without poles so long as you maintain good position, but as soon as your position deteriorates you'll slip. This drill will allow you to feel when your position is right and when it's wrong.


Here's a good general video for classic technique; they start talking about body position just after 1:05.





And for those who really want to nerd out on classic skiing for an extended duration, here's all 90k of the 2012 Swedish Vasaloppet.

[DoubleButted]

Caleb,
Thx for posting the classic style videos, haven't graduated to skating yet. And thanks for telling us where the interesting stuff was, the previous 2 videos were more biathlon than I've watched in my entire life just trying to find the spot you were talking about! Very cool sport though. There's an old Olympic biathlon training site < 2K up the trail from my house. Haven't heard anyone shooting this winter, so they must have moved somewhere else.

[ned]

I've yet to drive the whole hour required to get to the former Olympic venue at Soldier Hollow. This race makes me want to fly with skinny skis to Italy. (Includes some good "moto" shots for technique.)

[caleb]

Leading up to the Olympics, I've started to check the USST-members' blogs more often. Some of the photography on Sophie Caldwell's blog is really nice and worth checking out: Sophie Caldwell

A few of my recent favorites:

[Eddie]

I skied with a guy for a bit yesterday who was wearing the Garmont Excursion (now the Scott Excursion). He claimed that it was only about a one lb. weigh penalty over my combi boot, and that the benefits of extra stability far outweighed the extra bit of weight. He's one of the owners of the area I ski and has been at it for 30+ years. Just a data point.

I plan to demo some soon, so I'll let you know my impressions.

Follow-up: the past weekend I skied my Evo Tours, my older Evo Tours which are essentially the current Evo Trail, the Evo OT, the Madshus Eon, and the Fischer Snowbound 98's. My girlfriend skied some Madshus Epochs as well. The Evo Tours I skied with my NNN boots, the Evo OT and Eons with an Alpina NNN BC boot, and the Fischer Snowbound in the Garmont Excursion and a Voile cable binding.

The only way I can make the Garmont/Scott Excursion work would be with a custom insole. My feet are of such low volume, and this boot of such high volume, that even with my toes touching the inside of the boot in a 28 Mondo, I'm still on the tightest ratchet setting for both buckles. That said, for the pair of 29's I skied, the sole had an impressive amount of flex, and the hard plastic shell is freaking awesome for executing those hairpin turns. The Scarpa T4 would seem the nearest comparable boot out there, and it's reputed to be of lower volume, so I need to figure out how to check some out.

In the end it's a game tradeoffs. As Jamey the tech would say, "what's your focus today, touring or turning." For the some-groomed, mostly off-piste stuff we did, the Eon with NNN BC was really a sweet setup. Not too slow or heavy for ascending, and still had a decent sidecut and edge to turn - we even ripped a run at the resort next door on them. I'm tempted to find a set and mount them with an NNN binding. The Epoch and Fischer 98's are much more suited to turning, (esp. in powder), but man what a slug to drag up the trail by comparison. The sweet spot if you've got mad skills and are an ultra-minimalist (for same described terrain), are the Evo Trail or the Evo OT. Functionally they're not too too different, but the Evo OT does feel a bit stiffer under foot and probably bites just a bit better when turning.

[caleb]

This video of Alexy Poltoranin's classic technique just came through my inbox. In slowmo you can see just how much he's gliding after planting his foot and before kicking.

[Nierman]

Ok, I just skimmed this entire thread and my head hurts a little. Pictures are fantastic, though, and have me itching to get me a setup for next season. Total newbie and no clue what would work best with what I have, though. I'm backed up to ~15mi of grassy doubletrack horse / hunting path with very little elevation change. I'm guessing track style is what would work (given lack of groom) and I can modify my sled (pic below) and add a couple DIY track setters then drag my own ~5mi loop if the snow is real deep. I'm a cheap SOB, so gateway skis off craigslist then upgrade from there? I don't want to see these out at the curb on trash day like my neighbor's Tony Little Gazelle.

h yeah, pic:

[caleb]

This is baller… Yesterday a girl won the Minnesota state classic race on equipment borrowed at the last minute from a guy 20 pounds heavier than her.

Skinnyski.com: A Legend Is Born



Fitness and skill trump all.

[DCT]

this is baller… yesterday a girl won the minnesota state classic race on equipment borrowed at the last minute from a guy 20 pounds heavier than her.

skinnyski.com: A legend is born



fitness and skill trump all.

agreed!

[Nierman]

A little more thinking about this, the state park trails I live adjacent to have minimal elevation change - so I'll pretty much be kick & gliding - no coasting. I can't find it but I recall Darren recommending the Rossignol Evo OT to someone... Since I'll be carving my own trail each time in lighter snows, then DIY-grooming track sled when heavy, would these be ideal? Makes sense in my head, but considering I have NO downhills and no experience I was still wondering if there wasn't a more desirable setup for us flatlanders. I'll try not to go Lionel on you all here. Thanks!

[christian]

Fahnestock State Park with my 5 year-old. He's developing some kick and zooms down the hills and says he likes Nordic just as much as alpine skiing. Warms my icy Swedish heart.

[DCT]

Fahnestock State Park with my 5 year-old. He's developing some kick and zooms down the hills and says he likes Nordic just as much as alpine skiing. Warms my icy Swedish heart.

That's great news. I'll never downhill ski again if I get find good cross country. I'm headed to Fahnestock tomorrow if you're out that way! OtherDarren may want to go.

[DCT]

A little more thinking about this, the state park trails I live adjacent to have minimal elevation change - so I'll pretty much be kick & gliding - no coasting. I can't find it but I recall Darren recommending the Rossignol Evo OT to someone... Since I'll be carving my own trail each time in lighter snows, then DIY-grooming track sled when heavy, would these be ideal? Makes sense in my head, but considering I have NO downhills and no experience I was still wondering if there wasn't a more desirable setup for us flatlanders. I'll try not to go Lionel on you all here. Thanks!

Yes, I have the EVO OT and love them. Partial metal edge in the middle (fairly light), and a good width. Even EddieB likes them. Go nuts.

[DCT]

a few really good exercises in this video. i have one of those stupid wheels that i need to dig out of storage.

[s_curran]

So today my girlfriend and I gave it a try. We both really liked it, we rented and did 8 miles, most of it groomed. I loved the ungroomed stuff, her not so much, but I think that was to do with a layer of crust she wasnt getting her poles through (there was tracks). We'll need a lesson before we develop too many bad habits. We are both pretty good downhill skiers, her more so.

I'd like to pick up some used classic skis, for each of us. I like the idea of waxable skis I think, as I enjoy waxing my downhill skis. I was on rossi evos today, and it was tough to judge them because they were pretty beat. Downhill was slightly controlled chaos, which I was ok with, her not so much. I want to do used skis to keep costs down. Any thoughts on what to look for? I want to do groomed tracks, but also ungroomed stuff, with and without tracks.

[caleb]

I'd like to pick up some used classic skis, for each of us. I like the idea of waxable skis I think, as I enjoy waxing my downhill skis. I was on rossi evos today, and it was tough to judge them because they were pretty beat. Downhill was slightly controlled chaos, which I was ok with, her not so much. I want to do used skis to keep costs down. Any thoughts on what to look for? I want to do groomed tracks, but also ungroomed stuff, with and without tracks.

Two thoughts:

1) For everyone who cares even a little bit about speed and is willing to put out a shred of effort, waxable skis are pretty much always better.

2) Used skis are rarely worth it. You don't save that much, but you loose the most important aspect - fit. If you want to buy used to save money, buy used boots and poles. Buy the skis themselves from a knowledgable shop.

[lumpy]

Two thoughts:

1) For everyone who cares even a little bit about speed and is willing to put out a shred of effort, waxable skis are pretty much always better.

2) Used skis are rarely worth it. You don't save that much, but you loose the most important aspect - fit. If you want to buy used to save money, buy used boots and poles. Buy the skis themselves from a knowledgable shop.

Yes and no - There's a lot of New England weather where the temperature is around freezing, or there's a layer of rained-on snow under fresh snow, where there genuinely isn't a wax that works. By that I mean sometimes you have no grip, and then down the trail the snow is balling up on your skis. It's good to have a backup pair of beater waxless skis that you can put on and go no matter what.

I feel just the opposite way about the relative merits of used boots and skis - I buy all my boots and my skate skis new, but there are just so darn many used classic skis around at ski sales and tag sales that I haven't bought new in many years.

There are two main binding systems for light-duty classic skiing, NNN (New Nordic Norm) and SNS (Salomon Nordic System). NNN has 3 ribs along the length of the binding to locate the foot, SNS has one bigger one. I like SNS better but my only reason is I think the bigger rib is more effective. You want to commit to one system or the other and then you can try all kinds of skis.

Fit on classic skis has a couple of parameters: length of course, which varies with the type of ski, width ditto, and also flex. If you are a 180 pound plus skier you need a ski with a stiff flex so that when you are gliding the wax pocket is relatively up off the snow and you are gliding on the glide-waxed tips and tails. When you are on good snow and in a good track this can get genuinely fun. I'm a clydesdale and I'm skiing on some giant (215 cm, and wide) wood and fiberglass classic skis from the early 80's. You'd think such a heavy ski would feel dead but it's just the opposite.

[Philster]

I'm strictly an occasional skier and waxless meet my needs. After having trouble with snow build-up, I've started to use Swix Easy Glide. It seems to work well so far but it's not cheap or readily available.

Anybody have a better alternative? I've read that some folks use WD-40. Anybody tried it?

[lukasz]

I bought some Voile Mountaineer bindings and 3 pin boots the other day. Will be trying them out tomorrow. I'm interested in how they will compare to NNN. This is on Madshus Eon skis and out of machine-groomed tracks.

Waxable skis aren't that bad to get used to (OK so it took me two years of occasional skiing to get the hang of waxing), but I agree waxless makes sense for New England. I'm going to pick up a pair for next season. Tomorrow is definitely going to be a klister day. I think I'd rather just have another set of skis.