Suppliers of whipping posts?

[jclay]

It's time to drill my 4" granite plate and add a whipping post. I know Bringhelli offers one but who else does? I'd be interested in customer reactions, but only offline.

Thanks

[PaulE3]

I got my post from Joe. Love it and the price. I saw the Loco Machines booth at NAHBS Loco Machine and thought they had some good hardware too.

[Rody]

John,

One has to ask...why do you not make the post yourself? When speaking to the complexity of frame fabrication, alignment posts are a very basic undertaking.

If tools are the limiting factor, beginning a relationship with a local machinist would be an excellent step forward, as there will be many other projects that the relationship will prosper from in the future as you begin a path towards independence.

Take some time to define your vision of your alignment system and the necessary tooling to make it a reality, then do it. Make the tools that will work for your process, not adapt your process to someone else's vision and constraints.

Rody

[Amaro Bikes]

Hi John

First of all, I know you've asked for an specific question and I'm going to answer to a different one, don't take it personally... just a personal experience in case it's of any help for you (or anyone else)

When I made my alignment table I did also order a whipping post as it was how I was teached to check/correct alignments, but after some first test frames, I can tell you most of the things I made for corrections have been literally given away as I did not use any of those anymore. Great to have alignment checking things, but when things come to correction, specially if using the actual thin tubes from Columbus/etc, there's almost no chance to amend anything by force, if worst, things can be redirected with heat and partial second passes (not many as not to overcook the meal).

So, unless you're using old school tubes I would definetly not worry much about whipping posts and just be happy with a well built reference surface to check how the frame alignment is, and that's all, all the rest would have to be welding sequence procedure till you find your own way to make the frames straight (whatever straight limits are for your own quality levels). Make tight miterings and correct sequence and alignment will just become a routinary double check of what things should be.

Cheers.

P.D. If not, Rody's advise is good one (how possibly not!)

[Will Neide]

I really like that Loco table. I'm just a sucker for orange.

Is the post just something for alignment checks or are folks cranking on their frames to get them straight? You really don't need much for alignment checks, but I don't cold set front triangles so my bottom bracket holder is fairly straight forward. It wouldn't survive touquing on a frame to straighten it.

[jclay]

All,

Thanks for the replies and suggestions.

Having been through fixtures from Talbot plywood variants (quite effective), beam jigs, cast iron table saw wings as surface plate, the conventional aluminum plate jig that I built (with accoutrements from Joe and dummy axles from Anvil (quite happy with both)), trying to rake blades in a hitch receiver (fail), a crap wooden raking mandrel I made, and doubtless other I've forgotten I have concluded that a whipping post would make my building life quicker and easier!

Until recently I used Vee blocks/HT as datum and a wooden lever to tweak my lightly tacked BB shells but its awkward and not as satisfactory as I'd like, though the HT will still be the prime reference. This is my latest whipping post proxy and while it got me there it isn't satisfactory.

Attachment 67361

As to making one myself I appreciate the sentiment (and rationale) but I am a life long do it your-selfer (including my house) and it simply isn't worth the time. I can get local machining if I need it. No, a store bought post is fine, I simply wondered what other makers out there had.

This is the frame jig:
Attachment 67362

And my raking mandrel which took a LOT of time with the file:
Attachment 67363

One day I'll replace the homemade roller with a proper rubber one.

Attachment 67365

I'll get up with Joe.

Thanks again,
John

[Rody]

...are folks cranking on their frames to get them straight?

If folks are using this equipment during the construction process for this purpose, the issue is with their process. No amount of equipment will fix that.

[Will Neide]

J, why not just drill your hole and drop in a 3/4" threaded rod, or whatever size would work with your headset/BB cups? You could use your headset cups on the rod and/or nuts to tighten everything down. Just needs to hold your BB tightly and the cones should center everything.

I have no idea what Joe charges, so hard to say what is best bang for your buck.

Good luck! Shop looks good.

[bencooper]

Have you seen the Alex Meade ones? I've got some of his kit (though not this) and it's very well made.

custom made frame building tools

[Curt Goodrich]

John,

I know you and I have had discussions about this on the old frame list. I'm glad to see you're getting a proper alignment system set up. I've said this in the past and my position hasn't changed. Learning to build frames without an alignment table of some sort is folly. Without the ability to check if something is in the right place how can one know what procedures are working and what aren't? Also I don't believe people never bend something into place. If they never do they haven't built enough frames yet and/or have very loose tolerances.

[Amaro Bikes]

I don't believe people never bend something into place. If they never do they haven't built enough frames yet and/or have very loose tolerances.

Well, to me is exactly the opposite, if you have to bend things to put a frame into position is probably because you have not built enough frames as to have improve your fabrication procedure into a healthy one without mayor misalignments. A good mitering job with a right welding sequence is what makes things end up one way or another.

On the other hand, with the modern thin steel tubes, if you try to put something into place by force, the most possible scenario will be a damaged tube with an ugly twist on it. This is how I learn that force won't help me at all fixing what was previously wrongly done.

Finally, what I do sometimes think is that if something has gone to a place just by force, the structure will somehow tend to come back to its NATURAL state with time, so no matter how much force you make into a wrongly mitered/welded structure, after some time it will make its way to be back to what it's by structural nature.

Maybe all this does not apply at all with thicker tubes or brazing, but I know nothing on those last two questions, I just throw my own thoughts and experiences and how I see allt his thing now, but for sure someone with much better knowledge and experience might be able to say more thoughtful answers

Cheers

[jclay]

Thank you Curt - It is very good to hear from you! Long time.

You speak the truth. BB posts are on the tables of long time successful builders (like you) for some very good reasons. Having used quite a number of PITA alternative methods to coax the tubes a skosh here/there it will be a treat to have the post. Before making absolute statements about frame setting, at least if accuracy and utility of comment is desired, it strikes me as necessary to have a bit more detail as to, well, ...the details!

Peripherally related (and repetitious): It is such a joy to finally have my vise on a pedestal with 360 degree access. I should have done that 10 years ago.

Attachment 67375

[jclay]

Well, to me is exactly the opposite, if you have to bend things to put a frame into position is probably because you have not built enough frames as to have improve your fabrication procedure into a healthy one without mayor misalignments. A good mitering job with a right welding sequence is what makes things end up one way or another.

Cheers

I don't mean this to come across in any sort of adversarial way, but Curt has built far more than enough drop dead gorgeous, stupid-good fitted-up, frames to know of what he speaks; far, far, far more than enough.

[Amaro Bikes]

No worries John, I did not mean to say Curt did not build enough, or any other "negative" comment, not at all! it was a way of explaining how I felt the more you build, the less need you have to any kind of cold setting, once you've figure out which building procedure works for you and making frames straight during the process rather than fixing it afterwards

Cheers

[Curt Goodrich]

Well, to me is exactly the opposite, if you have to bend things to put a frame into position is probably because you have not built enough frames as to have improve your fabrication procedure into a healthy one without mayor misalignments. A good mitering job with a right welding sequence is what makes things end up one way or another.

On the other hand, with the modern thin steel tubes, if you try to put something into place by force, the most possible scenario will be a damaged tube with an ugly twist on it. This is how I learn that force won't help me at all fixing what was previously wrongly done.

Finally, what I do sometimes think is that if something has gone to a place just by force, the structure will somehow tend to come back to its NATURAL state with time, so no matter how much force you make into a wrongly mitered/welded structure, after some time it will make its way to be back to what it's by structural nature.

Maybe all this does not apply at all with thicker tubes or brazing, but I know nothing on those last two questions, I just throw my own thoughts and experiences and how I see allt his thing now, but for sure someone with much better knowledge and experience might be able to say more thoughtful answers

Cheers

We're talking about two different things. I'm not talking about missing the alignment so badly that one has to seriously bend the tube to the point of disaster. I'm talking about when working to finer tolerances there can be "surprises." Case in point- weld sequences. One can follow weld sequences and change them as necessary according to what the frame is measuring. The same happens with brazing. But unless one can account for every puddle, amount of rod and heat input there will be variances. Not huge but variances nonetheless. Not to mention the impossible to see built in stresses to the tubes from manufacture. Those aren't commonly seen but if you haven't experienced it yet just wait. Now consider castings like fork crowns. Castings don't come out of molds. The wax positive comes out of molds and those wax bits are handled by very skilled human hands. Those hands can alter things enough that once the fork is brazed up the tips can pull off centerline. It happens and no amount of brazing tricks can prevent it. Again, if you haven't seen that yet just wait. I realize we're talking about tolerances which are defined individually rather than some sort of industry standard. Also, frames don't come back to their natural state. Build them crooked and they stay crooked. Build them straight and they stay straight. They only change when the material is yielded. I work with the same tubes you use and given that I've been around a bit longer I have used a lot of the old stuff too. You're right the older, thicker stuff can be bent further than the newer thin stuff. That said the new stuff can be bent a little. If a head tube is a half a mm to one side I'm going to fix that. That can be done with heat or force. If someone else doesn't chose to make that change that's not my concern. My point is there will be variances in frame alignment regardless of technique or ability. With experience those variances will shrink but if one is paying attention they will still be there just to a smaller degree.

[jclay]

No worries John, I did not mean to say Curt did not build enough, or any other "negative" comment, not at all! it was a way of explaining how I felt the more you build, the less need you have to any kind of cold setting, once you've figure out which building procedure works for you and making frames straight during the process rather than fixing it afterwards

Cheers

The more experience and thoughtfulness one brings to the exercise, the better the results. That’s worth working towards. The degree to which cold setting is appropriate is a function of numerous details like when in the sequence it is done (at tacking or finished), how much, what tubes are being used, what part of the frame and doubtless others. I am not expert and miss much. But simply announcing, absent knowledge of exactly what the person is doing, that using a BB post to manipulate a frame is like saying in a vacuum, “fire is bad”. There is no context, no application.

I will take it on faith that high strength, thin walled tubes are less amenable to cold setting of finished joints than thicker, lower strength tubes; but I haven’t the experience to deem it, in a blanket fashion, brutta figura, or worse. In my own case, how about correcting for my jig’s imperfections at the main triangle tacking stage? Or pushing the chainstays around a little bit? That’s totally reasonable and a BB post makes some of that easier. Other reasonable applications of cold setting must surely exist and my guess is that even the thin stuff can be manuplated a small bit.

The alignment tolerances and the measurement methods also bear on the subject, which is to say that these flexible structures that change shape with heat are a challenge just to measure reliably if you look at the problem from a precision machinist’s perspective, the two BB shell faces having their own minds being one example.

Monolithic prohibitions are much like stopped clocks which are correct at one or two instants per day; sometimes right but usually not, if only due to misapplication.

[e-RICHIE]

The best free advice I could and do give anyone who makes frames, especially a noob or hobbyist, is to forget you ever saw pictures showing how experienced production makers do their work, and ignore the tools they have for their work. If you're concerned with alignment, get a piece of aluminum stock (maybe 40" long by 1" wide and 1/4" in thickness) and hold it against a bb shell, measuring a distance up each pipe and rectifying the differences. The frame is held in a bench vice, and is rotated so that each measurement is taken as the aluminum stock is horizontal to the floor. It's up to you to decide how much misalignment is worth the worry.

[prolix21]

The best free advice I could and do give anyone who makes frames, especially a noob or hobbyist, is to forget you ever saw pictures showing how experienced production makers do their work, and ignore the tools they have for their work. If you're concerned with alignment, get a piece of aluminum stock (maybe 40" long by 1" wide and 1/4" in thickness) and hold it against a bb shell, measuring a distance up each pipe and rectifying the differences. The frame is held in a bench vice, and is rotated so that each measurement is taken as the aluminum stock is horizontal to the floor. It's up to you to decide how much misalignment is worth the worry.

Even with all the latest and greatest tools we had at UBI, this method was pretty much how we did alignment checks. Seemed more accurate and repeatable. Skipping the fancy alignment table that was 10 feet away that was anything but repeatable...

[jclay]

I used to do that but much prefer using my table, HT cones and some simple, homegrown fixtures. I get better results with less fiddly hassle and in less time on the table. I also prefer using the HT centerline as the index for the bulk of the frame; I'm confident I'll appreciate the BB post for anchoring the frame for small adjustments. But like the guy said "each to his own", there are quite a few ways to skin this cat.

[afwalker]

8142842137_beb479b41f_s.jpg https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8474/...beb479b41f.jpg
I'm a fan of the headtube method, here with homemade bbpost.
It's actually too tall here, I've gone to a 100mm one for round numbers sake.
cheers
andy walker

p.s. I haven't figured out the "new" flickr, somebody shoot me a pm if you know how to grab the bbc code and size a picture!