acetylene vs propane

[Doug Fattic]

I also think its worth noting that a lot of successful, long time builders use larger and heavier torches; most I'd guess.

John, let me elaborate a bit on why I encourage light equipment (particularly hoses) for those learning how to braze. There is very little difference between brazing successfully and making a mess. Just small subtle movements and maybe just a couple of mms of variation of where the flame is aimed is all there is between doing it right and poor technique. Of particular importance is being able to flick the flame off and on at just the right instant. Small interferences to this accuracy leads to big problems and that is why a beginner needs all the help they can get. It is easy to get discouraged (and possibly quit) when things keep going south.

Pros can braze successfully with almost any equipment. It makes much less difference to them what they use. In Ukraine we had this awful Russian made torch that was huge and odd shaped. Herbie Helm and I could braze just fine with it. Later I took over the Harris 19-5 (because it was an extra in my shop) which certainly was more pleasant to use even if was for acetylene. Eventually I was able to take over propane specific Victor stuff. Again it was a step up in ease of use. Could I braze just fine with any of this equipment? Yes. Did I enjoy it a lot more with a light hose on a J-28 with UN-J mixer and TEN-3 tip? Absolutely.

The majority of my framebuilding class students struggle in the beginning with their brazing motions. Some are not naturally gifted with coordination. They need every advantage (good instruction and the right equipment) to become successful in a reasonable amount of time. Stiff hoses and a heavier torch give them trouble. It would be unfortunate if a cheaper or more convenient equipment purchase makes reaching their framebuilding goals more difficult.

I always encourage my students to bring their own torch handle if they have one already. Most often this is something like the Victor 100 series. Nobody ever wants to use their own after trying out one of my aircraft style torch handles (the Smith AW1A, Victor J-28 or Uniweld 71).

[jclay]

John, let me elaborate a bit on why I encourage light equipment (particularly hoses) for those learning how to braze.

I understand your rationale but I think that a disproportionate emphasis is sometimes placed on the torch, and hardware in general for that matter. I know it was with me early on. Practice is where it’s at, and learning the peculiarities of one’s tools and how to deal with them. With instruction beginners will improve rapidly regardless of the torch used. I see hoses the same way. If lightweight oxy/fuel equipment and support are available, great; but if not, equipment in the Vic 100 class will work fine and I don’t think it will hold anyone back.

[EricKeller]

I learned with a torch as big as my arm. Then I moved to Trek where they had the pilot light version of the A1WA (almost bought one off of ebay, forget the exact model of the torch) until someone made a big bang through carelessness over lunch. I think if you are buying a torch in the U.S., it makes sense to get a J28 clone. For one thing, the Vic 100 torches will probably flow more acetylene than most hobbyist tanks can source safely. It's just a needless complication for a newbie.

[duanedr]

. I think if you are buying a torch in the U.S., it makes sense to get a J28 clone. For one thing, the Vic 100 torches will probably flow more acetylene than most hobbyist tanks can source safely. It's just a needless complication for a newbie.

Changing from Victor 100 to J28 with TM hoses made a huge difference in my brazing. the other was the dydidium (?) glasses.

[Todd Mosley]

I just switched to propane a few weeks ago with great results - with either silver on lugs or LFB fillets. It is very hard to burn flux. I'm using an AW1A with a AW208 tip (marked 52).

[Davey Smalley]

Thanks Dough for your info on the Harris torches - I couldn't find an image of the tip recess! I found the 10mm hoses restricted movement during my class so I think your advice and preference for lighter weight equipment. I'm going to wait for the victor torch as it's probably going to be my most important piece of equipment.

I can't find anything other than 6mm hoses in England, I've been told the TM and smith don't comply with our regs for colour coding. Not really a problem for me but perhaps why they're only available in the US?

[Davey Smalley]

Sorry Doug - Doh!

[NBC]

davey,

i've got the same problem with the hose sizes, i ended up buying 6mm orange and blue hoses from BOC, as i more or less gave up on trying to get the small stuff over here !

i use a murex saffire 4 torch with the 10mm threaded tips, sure it's pretty big and i'd like something much smaller, but i can get by with it, it's brazing small things that limits it

NBC

[Doug Fattic]

I taught a student from the UK in an abbreviated course (6 days) in Ukraine using propane with the Harris 19-5 torch with an acetylene mixer and tip (because I hadn’t taken over propane specific equipment yet). A few years later back in England he wants to switch from acetylene to propane for all the reasons we are familiar – easier regulations and transport and cheaper costs. He asked my advice about what equipment would work the best for him using propane. He had a huge torch handle with gianourmous 10mm hoses. I know he will do better with lighter equipment. The problem of course is matching the US fittings with the UK fittings. I suggested the switch from UK to US fittings could be made on one end of a standard UK rubber hose. This is essentially what I did to connect my American equipment to Ukrainian tanks and regulators. One end can be cut off and a US replacement hose fitting put in its place. There is a brass piece that has barbs on one end that goes inside the hose and is held in place with a hose clamp. The other end of this unit is American treaded. Western Enterprises part number 40-B (for a 1/4” or 6mm oxygen hose) and 41-B (for the propane hose) will make that conversion. This is a B size male end part that can connect directly with the female end of another hose. Other hose adaptor options are possible.

So the line from the tank to the tip would be: a UK regulator, UK flashback arrestor, a 6mm UK hose with one end cut off and and replaced with a Western Enterprises barbed hose adaptor, TM Technologies 10’ ultra-light hose (it has A fittings but they include separate B adaptors that will join the A ends with the B size 40 and 41-B ends on the other hose), “A" size check valves, Victor J-28 or Victor clone (like the Uniweld 71) torch handle, Victor UN-J mixer/elbow and finally a TEN-3 tip (and a TEN-2 and TEN-4 available). For US users, I’d recommend a 3/16” T hose (R is for acetylene and doesn’t hold up with propane) with B fittings on the end that goes to the regulator and A fittings on the other that will attach to the 2nd hose. There needs to be a male/male connector between the hoses (that have female ends).

In other news: Flashback arrestors are a one way flow valve with a male fitting on one end and a female on the other. There are 2 kinds that can be either on a regulator or a torch but they can’t switch places. Logically they are designated as either regulator or torch arrestors. In other words a flashback arrestor designed to fit on the regulator (with the female end on the regulator and the male end in the hose) can’t go on the end of the torch handle because its directional flow would be going the wrong way and would stop the flow of gas to the torch. The wisest place to put a flashback arrestor is on the regulator next to the tank because if for some reason you burned a hole in the hose, there would be little to stop a fire going back to the tank and blowing it up.

It is better to have your tanks a bit away from your work. It is also better to have your hoses hang from the ceiling rather than dragging on the floor getting dirty and where melting flux might drip on them. This is why I use 2 hoses connected together to get both the length and lightness I want. A standard rubber hose that attaches to the regulator on one end and to a lightweight hose on the other (with the help of a male/male connector). The TM ultra-lightweight hose attaches to the torch handle (or more accurately to the check valve that attaches to the handle).

I just called TM Technologies and they ship worldwide including the UK. They invite you to call or email for international shipping cost estimates. If one likes the Meco Midget torch (I don’t but others love them) they also sell, one could buy everything else from them. Besides the ultra-light hoses, they have T rated (for propane) rubber hoses with A/B fittings. TM Technologies makes propane specific tips (they give a very sharp precise flame) and necks of different lengths to fit the Midget torch. They also have hose connectors as well as check valves and flashback arrestors. The only thing they wouldn’t have is the Western Enterprises replacement hose fittings. Opinions on the Meco Midget torch are polarized. John Clay loves his but I don’t like them nearly as well as a torch with a round handle. Several students have brought them to class and they think they are wonderful. Maybe if I hadn’t started learning with a round handle I would like them better. Just be aware that it isn’t a torch handle everyone loves because they are certainly different than any other torch handle.

[jclay]

John Clay loves his but I don’t like them nearly as well as a torch with a round handle. Several students have brought them to class and they think they are wonderful. Maybe if I hadn’t started learning with a round handle I would like them better.

True fact, nothing I've used is as enjoyable, not even the AvJet which was very nice. If lightweight iron is available, affordable and otherwise fits the bill, do it; but if not, run what you brung. You'll still get there.

Attachment 68765

[devlin]

I'm finding the torch set I bought to be of considerable weight and yes it does affect the motion ie. slow it down. I'll persist with it as I have fairly strong and fit arms from climbing. Maybe down the track if I end up building more often I might invest in something lighter. The heat I am getting and the control I have from the No. 3 stamped fitting is very nice and the torch adjusts very easily. I will have to get some regulator arrestors as it only came with torch ones and I might get some lightweight hoses to extend the distance to the tanks and drop some of the weight on the arm. Great fun so far.

[nspace]

How are you home users storing your propane?

So far my setup as been working really well. I have no complaints or issues. I've tested all connections for leaks, and I have the proper regulators, check valves, and flashback arrestor installed. I guess my inner paranoia is starting to kick in since we are about 30 days or less from my wife delivering our kids. With my tank in the basement, where there is also a furnace, I am thinking this is probably not the safest long term place to store the tank since propane is heavier than air. As confident as I am in the setup...you never know. While in use I have a ventilation system directly over my work area which seems to work well, but more of my concern is when I am not using it (which is most of the time). The garage probably has better ventilation and no furnace, but our nursery is in the room above so that also freaks me out. I don't know if its best to store the tank outdoors, and bring it into the garage with the door open when I need use it. Removing and reinstalling the regulator and checking for leaks every time seems like a hassle but maybe thats the best solution. Any thoughts or suggestions?

I'd kill for one of those houses with the detached workshop/garage setup, that seems ideal! Unfortunately something like that wont be in the cards for a while :)

[NBC]

tom,

i just leave my setup all bolted together, but when i'm finished, i turn both cylinders off, and then let the gas out of the hoses, then just coil them up and that's that

the way i see it is that it doesn't leak, so taking it apart every time seems like more of a chance to have something leak, than just leaving it as is !

just my take on things, i'm sure there are many points of view on this

good luck, and congrats on the child :)

NBC

[nspace]

Thanks for the response. That is pretty much my shutdown procedure exactly. I'll poke the tip of the torch up into my ventilation duct when I empty the remaining propane in the line to make sure it gets sucked up and pushed outdoors. I feel like the setup is safe and have confidence in it, but then sometimes my mind thinks the worst and plays the what if game.

Thanks for the congrats. I'm probably worry about a problem that won't exist once our babies arrive...actually having time to do this. We'll see :)

[nspace]

Edited together a little video while while doing some practice brazing with silver. Exhausted the flux a little too much in some areas, but got silver all the way through. It was more of an excuse to play around with my new camera but figured it was worth sharing. Gotta keep practicing!

[ljm]

On the matter of safe storage, don't neglect the oxygen; it doesn't take much to cause an oxygen fire and they happen incredibly quickly. Several years ago, I was blending gas at work, when one of the hoses began to burn. The hose has high pressure O2, being pumped very slowly. Every thing was cleaned and designed following (diving) industry standards, and yet something had ignited. Following a very rapid shutdown of the system I identified a very small defect on the inner wall of the hose; it had been enough to cause heat build up. Remember the fire triangle?? Just about anything is fuel in pure O2!

Than incident could very easily have been much worse. So I'd recommended getting clued up on the safe storage and handling of oxygen (a large cylinder of O2 has the explosive energy of a grenade...), but there's no need to frighten yourself out of using it at home.

A builder I know has switched to propane because his local acetylene plant blew up, making supplies somewhat short for a while. He hasn't switched back.

[devlin]

I keep my set up assembled but close the tanks and purge the lines as well. So long as you had some ventilation in the gatage youll be fine. Maybe instal an exhaust fan close to where the bottles sit that runs for 5 mins every hour or something like that.

[veryredbike]

Worth noting... I'm pretty sure that a skilled builder could easily complete a frame with two 1lb camp cylinders... that stuff lasts a really long time for the volume... I'm assuming because a lot of the propane is in liquid form in the bottle. I'm currently building with an oxygen concentrator and a regulator that I hooked up to a camp bottle adapter and a quick shutoff valve. They only take a minute to screw in and out, and when you're not actively using it, it's no more dangerous than having a little hand torch on the shelf. If I had a more dedicated work space I probably wouldn't bother with them and would just go for the BBQ tank and oxygen bottle setup... but since I just share a corner of a space where someone is working on motorcycles and stuff right now, I'm always nervous that someone would knock the regulator right off moving heavy stuff if I went that route.

Thanks again for this thread! It gave me some great options that I never would have thought of otherwise.

Forgot:

Jim Burakoff

[Rohan]

There's paranoia, and then there is storing flammable gas in an area with limited ventilation and a naked flame.
Work out some way to store the gas that vents safely if there was a leak, either inside or outside the garage.

Rohan Bevan

[MrkiMedo]

I keep my set up assembled but close the tanks and purge the lines as well. So long as you had some ventilation in the gatage youll be fine. Maybe instal an exhaust fan close to where the bottles sit that runs for 5 mins every hour or something like that.

That would better be spark free fan :)