Powder and Paint

[Archibald]

Thanks Curt.

I've got two of Don Ferris' frames that were finished by Spectrum, and I always assumed that both were all-powder, not a combo of powder & paint. The first one was a single-color with clear over graphics that could take the heat from baking. I'm almost certain he said that it was all-powder. The second one had a much more intricate flame-job, and I always assumed it too was all-powder, but now I'm not sure. Doesn't really matter, both continue to look great after several years & many miles of use. Still curious, though - Don, can you answer this?

FWIW, I certainly agree with you on wet paint for a fine lugged frame - can't beat the "crispness" it provides.

What type of paint they use with powder depends on the colors being used. So for your FG, it's pearl (IIRC) with silver accents, so the accents would be wet paint, the pearl & the clear coat would be powder. For the blue bike, it's all powder. Some intricate powder bikes have to be clear coated with wet paint because the colors would bleed when they baked the powder clear coat. Reds used to have the most problems with this but it's been a few years since I've dealt with this kind of stuff in any detail.

I'll see if Mark would like to add anything to this thread and get the straight scoop.

[lunacycles]

What I originally said was wet clear stays glossy longer than powder clear.

I know. And all I replied and offered to this illustrious group was that wasn't my experience having had many frames painted, powdercoated, and powdercoated with wet clearcoats. I am not debating which is "better" nor feeling you are trying to convince me of anything, but adding my own experience. Isn't that what this forum is for?

Buffing a scuffed clear isn't something typically done by customers but it's not out of the ordinary for a framebuilder to take care of it. Think of it as another tool in the tool box or another service provided. I see it as a good idea just like being a good mechanic is a benefit to the builder and the customer.

When do I take care of it? They have the frame 2000 miles away. They report back. I take care of my customers. I am not trying to start a debate: just reporting the facts, ma'am. Powder clears have held up a lot glossier over time than paint in my experience. I do have that. That was my fact to report, and that is all. I wholeheartedly agree with your other statements wrt lugs and that kind of thing. Cool that you have your opinions, too. Please just don't imply that I could fix it up if I were a more complete framebuilder. That wasn't what this was about.

[lunacycles]

thanks.

[luftkraft]

Ok, I told myself that I wouldn't create a book here but...I picked up on this thread a little late so there is a fair amount that I would like to say. We at Spectrum have always been guilty by association when it comes to the level of quality and expectation of our powder finishes. I mean....look at the others that providing powder coat finishes. Powder is most generally an industrial finish that is extremely functional and is almost always marketed and applied in an industrial way. This is to say that near 100% of the companies that specialize in powder coating do the industrial thing, and most do a good job with industrial coating.

That said,...we have carved out a very small niche in the powder end of things. Our expectation of quality has evolved to exceed what the "industry standard" can support.

What I mean is...there is not consistent enough performance between one powder to the next. So our ability to control our quality became extremely difficult. We now have many of our powders custom made to our spec. We spec. these powders with certain characteristics that allow us to control the level of quality that we have come to expect.

Inexpensive and "old" formulations of certain powders certainly support the bad stereotypes i.e. rust forming under the finish (lack of rust inhibitor) and excessive thickness and "orange peel" (poor particle grinding and lack of flow agents). Many of these products are still manufactured and sold.

Now for the powder vs. liquid debate.....
Curt is absolutely right, most generally powder will not keep lug detail as sharp as liquid will. Now, that's not to say that we don't have several powders that will. We simply cannot be consistent enough between colors to generally market the ability to do so. Consequently there is far less brain damage if we suggest liquid paint for these specific jobs (unless the customer is set on powder and is willing to compromise lug sharpness for the undeniable durability).

I don't want to imply that lug details are diminished dramatically (we would not use powder that would yield such results). For the super high quality lugged frame it may not yield the desired result. This is why we increased our liquid paint capacity and added the new "custom shop" option which is generally liquid paint finishes exclusively.

The combination of powder and liquid paint can also be done with great results. Using a powder base coat in combination with other detail color, an adhesion promoter then a liquid clear can produce an extremely crisp, durable finish while maintaining very sharp lug detail.

The benefit to this process it that there will never be any color stability problems, meaning that during the final cure of the liquid clear, the pigments in the powder base that would normally bleed up into the powder clear now stay put.

With liquid paint your color options are limitless, you can combine any combination of any color with ease. With powder you will be somewhat limited in your color options, though there are still thousands of choices.

The question of which clear will maintain it's gloss longest really depends on the formulation of the clear. As far as surface hardness they are probably close to equal as long as both are fully cured. I only say this because they are both generally made of the same material either urethane or polyester. The application is different but the material is the same. Most powder clear coats lack in the gloss department...they generally yield around a 85-90% gloss value where a gloss liquid clear coat will be around 95-99%. We have over a 95% gloss value with our powder clear but it is far better than most available. Though the potential for scuffing or abrasion is very similar between powder and liquid, impact resistance is off the charts with powder and not so much for liquid.

As for our frames that are finished in all powder coat... the entire finish is powder coat including any detail/logos. We achieve this with our dry pigment process. A powder base coat is applied first, then detail/logos are done using a raw heat stable pigment carried in a solvent that evaporates completely soon after application. This pigment is not paint but only raw pigment applied in a thin cosentrated layer usually using a mask or series of masks. When the final powder clear coat is applied over the base coat and detail work a powder tough finish is achieved yielding liquid like detail.

Hope this helps.

[swoop]

its helps tons. thank you!!!!!!!!

[EnginCycles]

Hope this helps.

Honestly it made starting the thread worth it. Very good info. I believe the bike i am speaking about is the last type with all powder details and logos. Thanks Mark.

Cheers,
Drew

[luftkraft]

That's right Drew, The root beer and pastel blue frame was done in all powder coat. The root beer color being the powder base coat and the pastel blue color is the dry pigment that I explained. The entire frame then gets the powder clear.

[rphetteplace]

Mark does great work. Spectrum imho gets nowhere near the respect they deserve.