What I've Noticed -

[crumpton]

i didn't bash note taking. taking notes is so elementary it should be a non issue. if students are so fucking stupid they need to be instructed to take notes that god save us all.

Taking notes is a good way to remember what to do in the future (particularly if someone does not have a good memory). One has to start out right. For example when brazing a lug one needs to remember lots of details like torch settings, what flame pattern to follow, where to apply the rod, how fast, how close, what speed and what angle to use, etc. Many students have no idea how to do these things without instruction. And most aren’t likely to remember all that instruction when they try again later. So the advantage goes to the person that took good notes so they can do everything right when they do it again. There is no point in practicing the wrong way. I’m not a big fan of trial and error as an effective teacher when good instruction is available. Students that have learned bad brazing habits have a hard time breaking them so they can improve.

[Todd Mosley]

I've received unsolicited advice from one the of the master builders here, and the advice was much appreciated. But there is only so much advice that can be provided from pictures alone.

Are any master builders willing to receive an actual frame to critique? Or perhaps subassemblies, miniature frames, or whatever to reduce shipping costs?

[mmoore]

Based on the customers in my last shop I'd say it's cash-rich corporate types getting into cycling, diving headlong into their first custom build without really knowing what they're doing; all the while focusing on getting something rarer, more sparkly and more expensive than their new cycling buddies - their only logic being "if it's *that* expensive it *must* be good".

Hell, I'd been cycling for 20yrs+ but I still rushed into my first custom build. If patience were a virtue I'm blessed with I would probably be nearing the front of the Vanilla build queue about now, and armed with a whole lot more knowledge of what *really* works for me.

While I haven't read the last 3 pages yet... I experienced this yesterday while visiting what looked like a moderately high-end bike shop and listening to a few customers talking to the "head mechanic" about servicing their dura ace equipped carbon bikes.

"did you want me to perform (insert service that really doesn't matter)?"
->"oh ya! for sure, the best" while looking at his buddy for some sort of self gratification.

In that scenario, the mechanic was cleaning the "dirt" out of the back side of the caliper nut on the fork...

[incepi]

I happen to come with some serious LSD use baggage atmo.

The positive effects of opening the mind may offset the negative effects on memory.

[edoz]

I've received unsolicited advice from one the of the master builders here, and the advice was much appreciated. But there is only so much advice that can be provided from pictures alone.

Are any master builders willing to receive an actual frame to critique? Or perhaps subassemblies, miniature frames, or whatever to reduce shipping costs?

When I was building my first few, I seriously considered that. In fact, I had one boxed up and ready to go, but I never quite finished the e-mail to Steve.

[Doug Fattic]

i didn't bash note taking. taking notes is so elementary it should be a non issue. if students are so fucking stupid they need to be instructed to take notes than god save us all.

The Lord needs to help us all Nick. A good teacher can’t make the assumption that a student has all the tools to catch on to everything required to make frames because nearly every student comes with some learning disability. Almost no one has a good enough memory to keep all the necessary details in their head the 1st time through to recall later. Age, drug use, stupid parents, a lot of demons get in the way. And it would be incorrect to assume that everyone knows how to take decent notes. Many can’t. What compounds the problem is that often a student mistakenly thinks that because they see and understand what is happening at the moment they will know how to do it later. They don’t. This is why they have to be encouraged to write things down in an organized way.

One of the challenges of a framebuilding class is that it is necessary to have 100% understanding of the material to be able to make good frames later. What they can’t remember they somehow have to access. It isn’t like a history class in which it is okay to pass with 70%. You have to have mastery. The good news is that it will be an open book test but that text book better be good. And my job as a teacher is to make sure they get it enough to practice the right way later. That involves understanding the variances of how different students learn and adjusting to their individual needs.

In my opinion it isn’t enough to just give a clear explanation and a good demonstration. Students have to be checked to see if they actually got it and if they haven’t things have to be repeated or methods adjusted so they do get it. This isn’t med school where I accept only the very best and can flunk those that are doing poorly. They are students that are probably going to make frames no matter what I’m the gateway to their success or not. It is a big responsibility.

Ours is an unregulated trade. It would be nice if every school had to be accredited and hire teachers like myself that have university degrees and state certifications from the department of education. But we don’t and that’s not going to change. What I can do is make sure my students are as well trained as possible.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

[crumpton]

The Lord needs to help us all trained as possible.

not worth repeating

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

i find a good part of this post offensive and self righteous.

[Mike Mcdermid]

i find a good part of this post offensive and self righteous.

8dwarves_zpse30911a0.jpg

[Andrew R Stewart]

i find a good part of this post offensive and self righteous.

Having spent some time with Doug I understand where he's coming from. I don't feel his opinion is offensive at all. Sorry Nick, I think you're wrong. Andy.

[crumpton]

i am wrong that i find it offensive? please, my apologies. i'll check in with you on my future feelings. better yet i'll just let you comment for me.

goodbye folks.

Having spent some time with Doug I understand where he's coming from. I don't feel his opinion is offensive at all. Sorry Nick, I think you're wrong. Andy.

[David Tollefson]

Okay, hopefully to get this thread back on track...

I've put off chiming in here because I'm likely one of those inexperienced cats that e-RICHIE is talking about in the OP. I'll own that.

I'm not putting myself out there as some master f-builder, and I won't lie about how many units I've built. My history is of building is brief, but my study of frame geometry is long. So I'm decent on design, and the fab is coming.

My start was in an intensive session with Dave Levy, a class that was more about building a frame along with the help (and a lot of help, in some cases) of a master builder. I learned that I had a whole lot to learn, just on the subjects touched on. I wanted fillet brazing, and that's what we did, but I had tig-welding goggles and couldn't see much. What I've learned of brazing is from forums like this, and a lot of practice (buckets of joints brazed and cut up).

But I've got the FB page and the website, and I've offered myself up for anyone who wants to order up a frame from me. In that regard I'm that wet-behind-the-ears dope of e-RICHIE's diatribe. Being the only cyclist in the extended family, and not active in the racing community any more, I can only make so many units for myself and close family. I look at some one like Julie Ann Pedalino as an inspiration of some one whose skill is beyond that "moral number" of frames made.

But I'm also not trying to make this a full-time gig. Doesn't exempt me from making my f-building "professional", and I appreciate all the support and tough love.

So, all that said, when I present anything on FNL, I'll welcome any feedback. And I'm hoping I can get some time with some of the great brazers here to look over my shoulder and pull the torch back on occasion.

TIA

[Andrew R Stewart]

i am wrong that i find it offensive? please, my apologies. i'll check in with you on my future feelings. better yet i'll just let you comment for me.

goodbye folks.

Wow. Nick- I find your experiences to be very insightful and if you stop posting many will be for the less. I just feel that your opinion isn't mine and therefore in my view wrong. Not unlike yours, but different. My comment isn't about personal issues. I feel that my time with Doug has made me better understand his take on teaching. I don't agree with his faith but do respect it. It has worked for him and it has made many better for it too.

You are another of the respected members here that if I had a chance to spend time in the shop I'd look forward to it. Then maybe I would better understand your stance. Would you explain here? Andy.

[Mike Flanigan]

I was part of the problem :(

Over the last 5 years I taught about 100 classes. About 90% of the students were just having a fun vacation and I made sure the frames were sound before they left my shop. In the end I even had some custom thick tubes made just for my classes. However about 9 shops have been spawned out the classes and about 6 or 8 hobbyist making frames for fun. Some of these start ups were very quick to pick it up, but most were to quick to start selling. I begged people to practice more to no avail. Some did improve a lot and others I feel are still struggling and should take a step back.

A few students were very talented and it was a pleasure to train them. The rest was a painful process that I struggled to get through the week(s). As for design most of the time I would stick to my guns about making nothing weird or too thin, but I did let a few go and regretted it. Those bikes have not broken or anything, but still bummed me out that I let those slip through [tubes too thin etc..].

Students that went out on their own rarely took my advice and that drove me crazy. Don't make forks, stems or handlebars, until you have made a lot of frames and have insurance. Don't buy tools you don't need [I love tools, but save that for later if ever]. Don't use thin tubes until you are very good at what ever joining method you use. Practice making joints, cut them up, bend them in a vise, break them and do that a lot [yes spend money]. Build a lot of free frames for friends and family [not forks]. I could go on in detail about this, but not now.

The most disturbing images I see out there are people trying to be different for no good reason. Upside down seat stays. Holes in tubes like a flute. And off set seat stays, figure eights and other shit like that. Please make it stop! Stick to standard principles...well for ever, but at least until you are good at it.

When I went to my first NAHBS in San Jose 06 I met a new builder who was doing some great work...however I noticed that he had built a segmented fork with only 7/8" straight gauge tubes. I asked him how thick they were and he said .035" and I thought you are going to kill somebody. He is still in business and doing well and still does great work, but that does not mean that that fork should have ever been made and this is the kind of thing new people will do.

[DeeDub76]

Not only there're many industry jobs out there for those who are really commited to become professionals (not long ago Moots was asking for tig welders in this very same forum, not even one reply...)

IMG_0167.PNG

I actually jumped all over the Moots oppurtunity. Those are some good folks over at Moots and they were very kind and understanding when I had had to decline. Trust me when I say my wife and I tried to think of all possible ways to quit our current jobs, sell our house, and move our family to Colorado all for the glory of making bikes.

[ABiCi]

As someone that has attended a frame building course (Doug's) I'd be curious to see the video in question. I've only got very limited experience so having an idea of what advice or guidance is good and which is not is helpful - there is a whole lot of stuff out there on the internet, and unless you know what you are looking for it can sometimes be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I'm one of those that went in expecting to make a bicycle for myself and at most make a few more for myself and maybe some friends, with no real intention of ever selling anything to anyone. I'm about to look in to spending some time with a builder here in Australia to get another frame or two under my belt before I decide to bite the bullet and tool up myself, opportunities are a fair bit more limited down here.

[Amaro Bikes]

I can't help the tig cats or nonferrous guys.

I disagree, I have learn loads of things from non tig people like You, Eric, Steve, Nick, Curt...

Attitude is key, process is just a circumstance

[Peter Polack]

I was part of the problem :(

Over the last 5 years I taught about 100 classes. About 90% of the students were just having a fun vacation and I made sure the frames were sound before they left my shop. In the end I even had some custom thick tubes made just for my classes. However about 9 shops have been spawned out the classes and about 6 or 8 hobbyist making frames for fun. Some of these start ups were very quick to pick it up, but most were to quick to start selling. I begged people to practice more to no avail. Some did improve a lot and others I feel are still struggling and should take a step back.

A few students were very talented and it was a pleasure to train them. The rest was a painful process that I struggled to get through the week(s). As for design most of the time I would stick to my guns about making nothing weird or too thin, but I did let a few go and regretted it. Those bikes have not broken or anything, but still bummed me out that I let those slip through [tubes too thin etc..].

Students that went out on their own rarely took my advice and that drove me crazy. Don't make forks, stems or handlebars, until you have made a lot of frames and have insurance. Don't buy tools you don't need [I love tools, but save that for later if ever]. Don't use thin tubes until you are very good at what ever joining method you use. Practice making joints, cut them up, bend them in a vise, break them and do that a lot [yes spend money]. Build a lot of free frames for friends and family [not forks]. I could go on in detail about this, but not now.

The most disturbing images I see out there are people trying to be different for no good reason. Upside down seat stays. Holes in tubes like a flute. And off set seat stays, figure eights and other shit like that. Please make it stop! Stick to standard principles...well for ever, but at least until you are good at it.

When I went to my first NAHBS in San Jose 06 I met a new builder who was doing some great work...however I noticed that he had built a segmented fork with only 7/8" straight gauge tubes. I asked him how thick they were and he said .035" and I thought you are going to kill somebody. He is still in business and doing well and still does great work, but that does not mean that that fork should have ever been made and this is the kind of thing new people will do.

FINALLY! A framebuilder chimes in with what they actually saw that didn't pass muster. Thanks, Mike!

Now; if only we could have a link to that video...

[trentschler]

Over the last 5 years I taught about 100 classes. About 90% of the students were just having a fun vacation and I made sure the frames were sound before they left my shop. In the end I even had some custom thick tubes made just for my classes. However about 9 shops have been spawned out the classes and about 6 or 8 hobbyist making frames for fun. Some of these start ups were very quick to pick it up, but most were to quick to start selling. I begged people to practice more to no avail. Some did improve a lot and others I feel are still struggling and should take a step back.

[snip]

Students that went out on their own rarely took my advice and that drove me crazy. Don't make forks, stems or handlebars, until you have made a lot of frames and have insurance. Don't buy tools you don't need [I love tools, but save that for later if ever]. Don't use thin tubes until you are very good at what ever joining method you use. Practice making joints, cut them up, bend them in a vise, break them and do that a lot [yes spend money]. Build a lot of free frames for friends and family [not forks]. I could go on in detail about this, but not now.

[snip]

The frame building courses offered by the experienced builders are totally great, but in many cases they can only be, as you note, a fun vacation. I took a one-week course from Toby Stanton when he had his Hot Tubes shop in Worcester, MA. It was really fun! I enjoyed it so much I went back a second time. Toby's frames were part TIG welded and part silver brazed. We used a store-bought fork. Not that Toby didn't know how to build forks, but it was more to fit the frame building in a five-day period.

I already knew how to weld and braze, fortunately. There's no way I would have picked that up in a couple of days. And I had no plans to start a business either. It was just to begin an enjoyable hobby.

To learn the complete basics of frame building and design would ideally take a couple of semesters/years, such as welding is taught at community colleges. And, even so, those courses just prepare you for the entry-level jobs. I had kind of an "enforced apprenticeship" when welding, that is, that was the one skill I had that paid pretty well and I had to go out and make a buck just like the next guy. Hence, welding day in and out. Otherwise, if I'd been practicing on my own with some scrap tubes, it might have been like, yup, good enough! If you're going to work as a welder, you have to know how to weld, more or less, or you won't get hired or be able to run a successful business. With bike frames, maybe not so much.

I guess one thing we can take away from this thread is that steel is pretty strong and so are most welds and brazings, unless you REALLY screw them up. For road bikes anyway, most of the stuff seems to hang together.

Personally, I tend to be pretty conservative - I'm riding my frames, after all. Yes, yes, I always want lighter, but when I pick the tubes it's always 8/5/8 or 9/6/9, 32 or 36 spokes, etc. I don't want the wings to fall off!

[classtimesailer]

I think a good start/corrective measure would be a Peer Review prior to posting on FNL. Perhaps some builders think that if they have posted there, that they have arrived. Some years ago a Guild was mentioned. Snobbery, professionalism, pride? It would definitely not be protectionism while the masters are so generous.

Jeff Hazeltine
Redondo Beach

[Burnette]

Why does it matter to the established and accomplished of you if a few new builders out there are just paper tigers? It should matter to you for good reasons. One being that bad experiences with a builder spreads quick and gives pause to future clients such as myself. A recent thread on another cycling forum about a builder that took money but didn’t even attempt to build anything for several years made my wallet pucker and had me rethinking this whole custom route as something way riskier than it is with some because of the actions of one. And he wasn’t a newb builder either. A story of shoddy work and a customer getting seriously hurt would be even worse and could really shudder some doors of those living close to the bone.
Through my own travels through this custom frame buying versus buying off the rack option I have come upon many a strange arrangement. Name on the down tube isn’t the same name as the guy making it, sometimes the builder is known and has cred, other times the frames are sourced over seas and you are paying for a brand’s “image”.
Money per unit is another thing that has gotten out of sync with reality. I have seen some pretty outrageous prices for a finished product that doesn’t come anywhere near the dear price paid for it. One poor soul paid a ton of money for a workaday low spec custom and couldn’t keep it and was trying to do a quick resale. I looked and looked at that bike, no way in hell it should have costs as much as it did. Never found out how much of a beating he took on it but it was a lesson I bet he will pass on.
Paper tigers (image brand outsourcers), price gougers and builders with no business savvy should bother you too because of what’s out there. For carbon, Trek has jumped onto the aero hype band wagon and Cannondale finally has the right crank on the 2016 mid level Evo I like for about five grand (I bet the bike shop will go lower) and on another forum yet another guy has built up a Ritchey Road Logic frame with nice baubles and it looks bitchin’. My shortness keeps the custom thing on the docket but there are so many options out there that as a group, builders don’t need the baggage of late deliveries, poor work, image factories and price gougers.
I think starting a guild is the way forward. Have a common logo too that can be seen somewhere on each of your websites. Make it simple as hell and try to be inclusive to those who meet whatever criteria you see fit.
Wayne Burnette
Consumer Of Hand Made Wares