What I've Noticed -

[Curt Goodrich]

My reply is the correct one to both your incorrect and corrected question. I was part of an assembly room operation (not a custom framebuilder shop) and was weened on the steps taken to make frames from one end to the other. Then, as my skills evolved, so did my responsibilities as a cog in the wheel. And then, later, I started a business. Of course, like Eric and many others, I gave up a lot to have what I eventually have. That's a trait I rarely see now. Folks want to go straight to becomiing a - FRAMEBUILDER.

My path was very similar. I worked at 3 different places and as my skills improved more responsibilities were added. After the 3rd shop went out of business I hung out my shingle. Probably built a 1000 frames before I ever put my name on the down tube.

[Eric Estlund]

My answer is the same- I made a few thousand, decided to open my company and continued to make frames for them during the day and as Winter until I transitioned into my own gig full time. Maybe I am misunderstanding your question.

I'm not posturing- I don't often discuss my numbers before Winter, but you asked. In total it was just under 4000.

In an average week I:

- Made 1 or 2 triple (3 person) bikes
- Made 4-5 tandems
- Made 30 single rider bikes
- Made 35 forks
- Brazed on approx. 1000 braze ons

In a (conservative) year that was:

- Using 50gallons of gas flux
- Lighting my torch 43,000 times
- Using 29,500 ft (about a 5.5 miles) of brazing rod weighing approx. 190lbs

When I suggest that people practice and do the best they can to get their numbers up it comes from my experiences. I can't imagine trying to do this without investing time into repetition and the "basic" skills. Doing a bunch of this stuff is invaluable and necessary. I had certain opportunities and made life style and geographic choices to continue my education in industry before opening my own shop. I was lucky, but I was also willing to put my head down, admit I had stuff to learn and was willing to make sacrifices to get what I felt I needed. I don't say all of this stuff to stroke my own ego, I do so because when Richard gets guff for suggesting someone knock out 100 practice joints I know that that is just a drop in the bucket it took to get me going.

In re-reading your question a few times, are you asking how many frames I made before I was hired to the job? That's easy- one, and it sucked. Part of being hired was getting trained and having to both answer to and be supervised by folks that new more then I did. That was a big part of the value to me, and one of the reasons I suggest people go into the industry first (or possibly stay there if the work suits them).

[Mike Mcdermid]

If you must put a dollar amount on it- and, really, you must- understand that in many cases you're better off killing them.

Let that sink in.


-L. Chase Anderson

if your going down the kill em route make sure the maths is right cost benefit analysis

[edoz]

I think what Todd might not be getting is that Curt, Eric and Richard had worked at those places for months or years before they actually built a complete frame that went to a customer. They had hundreds of hours of putting on cable stops or something relatively low risk under supervision before they did the money shots, and their work always went through an inspection process.
That is vastly different than starting out doing the complete process on your own with no one to look at it before it goes out.

[Michael Gordon]

In Japan, one training to be a sushi chef can be in training for years before they are allowed to start the process of cooking rice.

[todwil]

I do understand that the OP and counterparts where in the industry for a while before they ventured off Im asking what was the number of bike frames they built by there own hands working for somebody else or for themselves or burning the mid-night oil in a shed in the back yard and they're posturing and that's fine. From what Ive read from interveiws and articles that the number is between 10 and 40 that a frame builder starts letting frames go.

I do agree with the OP that there are a lot of folks out there that aren't ready if ever!

And Eric now know why your a little grumpy lay down the torch and take 6 Summer Shandy's pale ales
And don't call anyone in the morning take break man you earned it!


Todd

[Lionel]

All of these "making thousands of frame" stories before starting a business made sense back then when all bikes were steel or even aluminum. Today there is no market for steel or aluminum frames, 99.9% of people that buy "nice bikes" are buying carbon bikes. Basically there is no more market for this except a very small niche that does not land itself well to a model where you build thousands before putting your name on the downtube. So whoever is trying to pursue this angle will probably be dead and buried before frame number 1000.

Lionel Bonnot

[ericpmoss]

When you experienced builders look back, do you see the point when you had already become good enough, consistently enough, to go on your own? Was that before you had done those thousands of frames, right at that point, or after? I know everyone who cares about what they do can look back and shrug at what seemed fine in their early days, so don't feel embarrassed if the answer is "maybe next year I'll feel ready". :)

[e-RICHIE]

In Japan, one training to be a sushi chef can be in training for years before they are allowed to start the process of cooking rice.

Did someone mention Jiro atmo?
Jiro Dreams Of Framebuilding | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES


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[trentschler]

Did someone mention Jiro atmo?
Jiro Dreams Of Framebuilding | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES

I really enjoyed the thread you linked to this one, "Repetition, Routine...," from 1-13-12, in which you mention craft beer, coffee roasting and other home-style hobbies of the moment. I was in Barnes and Noble last week buying a non-eBook and the woman in front of me was checking out with a big box of "Brew Your Own Beer At Home." I was amazed that such a kit existed and that it was so easy to get. I wonder if you get carded trying to buy one of these if you're under 21.

My friends and I brewed some beer back in the early 70s - it was a little harder than going to the local bookstore! But we did have the Whole Earth Catalog. Our results were, shall we say, inconsistent. Some bottles knocked us out cold but others didn't even fizz. And, man, if we'd tried to go into business selling our beer? Sheesh! At least it wasn't poisonous, or at least not really poisonous.

So in light of your post, I got to thinking that maybe we'll see a "Build Your Own Bicycle" kit at Barnes and Noble. Then I realized there already is one - the Jiggernaut, with an included tube set! But if you don't know what you're doing with a welding torch...

Better to stick with craft beer.

[progetto]

I love beer.mmmm

[Will Neide]

Funny....we have a homebrewers store near-by and I keep waiting for the right moment to pop in for some yeast. Hoping to brew up some soda. For my consumption only, not for re-sale.

[Eric Siepmann]

Did someone mention Jiro atmo?
Jiro Dreams Of Framebuilding | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES


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Best meal I have ever eaten. An experience indeed.

[Rody]

I do understand that the OP and counterparts where in the industry for a while before they ventured off Im asking what was the number of bike frames they built by there own hands working for somebody else or for themselves or burning the mid-night oil in a shed in the back yard and they're posturing and that's fine. From what Ive read from interveiws and articles that the number is between 10 and 40 that a frame builder starts letting frames go.

Todd,

No posturing from folks in the biz, it's just that the time to attain mastery of a process is different for each.

From my perspective, I worked 2 years in a small production shop environment in each facet; cutting tubing, coping tubing, welding, brazing, accessory fabrication, painting, post fab assembly. You know how many bikes I built start to finish that went out the door to customers? Answer: Zero.

Each employee was well rounded and were expected to be functionable in each aspect, but like any production environment, we each worked a facet of the total process, passing the pieces on to the next stage. It is the most efficient process for the business plan, so no individual actually made a complete bicycle start to finish.

I completed a single frame for myself during that time, a few for family, and after leaving to start my own shop, my first complete build was for a customer. Though it was the first frame in my own shop, start to finish with my own hands, I had touched thousands of bikes through every step of the process to that point.

See how it is difficult to put a quantifiable number on "how many bikes must one build before hanging out a shingle?"

What I can say definitively is that I don't believe any fabricator that learns on their own will ever achieve the level of competence and quality of one who has worked with more experienced builders, having real daily instruction/education/intervention/refinement.

Shit, I've been doing this for 21 years now and I still feel like I learn something new each day, continuing to strive to reach a higher level of quality for my customers.

cheers,

rody

[crumpton]

What I can say definitively is that I don't believe any fabricator that learns on their own will ever achieve the level of competence and quality of one who has worked with more experienced builders, having real daily instruction/education/intervention/refinement.


rody

i have to respectfully disagree with this. some will spend decades with "masters" and never get the picture while others my find an extremely high level entirely on their own. i really believe that.

the self starter self teacher has plenty to draw on in our now 130 year history of building the safety bicycle.

i'll follow up and say most probably do need years of guidance. those that don't will find their way and those that have to ask probably already have the answer.

[devlin]

Hey Rody, I really appreciate the time you've taken to write these comments and explain with out being abstract. I can see in the way you explain a real innate passion for the craft.

I have one point that I have brought up in past discussions on this and Rich has even said it's something to think about a lot. I get what he means by it but some may not. What you described above just is not going to happen any more really. There may a be a couple productions shops in the US (I'm pretty sure they have been listed somewhere) but there certainly isn't one in Australia. The chance to build 100's off joints and get that thorough drilled in skillset is just not there. As pointed out earlier you can only build so many frames for your family and friends.

Now I'm not advocating that anybody just does a couple frames then goes into business. You have to be honest with yourself and be highly critical of your own work. There will be a couple guys that come into it and have the talent to fast track themselves but there won't be many of those. Most of us will take sometime to get it right.

What this highlights to me is that there is no real way of proving when it is you are getting it right. I wonder if there is a way of creating an exam of sorts that tests material and technique knowledge and practical testing that could then at least mean a builder has attained a considered level of competence. Not a guild thing but a proper academic cert of some sort. It would take a crap load of time to develop though. It would make insurance a crap load easier to get as well.

[Rody]

i have to respectfully disagree with this. some will spend decades with "masters" and never get the picture while others my find an extremely high level entirely on their own. i really believe that.

the self starter self teacher has plenty to draw on in our now 130 year history of building the safety bicycle.

i'll follow up and say most probably do need years of guidance. those that don't will find their way and those that have to ask probably already have the answer.

Nick,

I agree, there are exceptions, however, for the masses who have interest, watch you tube vids, attend a bike building vacation, it is not as likely.

As we are speaking in generalities, that is where my statement is focused.

r

[Eric Estlund]

I can't speak to Australia, but there are places in the US, the UK, Europe and Asia were one could still get this experience. I'm not sure how old people think I am, but my experiences are still current. Hell, there are two shops and hour deep into their first shifts in this town today. There really is no denying that production jobs still exist. Craddock just posted one in the UK a day or two ago.

It's not the only path, but it is still a viable one.

[Rody]

What this highlights to me is that there is no real way of proving when it is you are getting it right. I wonder if there is a way of creating an exam of sorts that tests material and technique knowledge and practical testing that could then at least mean a builder has attained a considered level of competence. Not a guild thing but a proper academic cert of some sort. It would take a crap load of time to develop though. It would make insurance a crap load easier to get as well.

It would be a utopian solution, but...

This niche of fabrication is so small.

Those with the experience are active builders who share out of a love for the industry.

Those who share want to see high standards achieved but honestly do not have time to create such a certification process, as we have to build to pay the bills.

In the end, the best I hope for is that those who truly desire this path as a career heed our advice and put forth a best individual effort to ensure competency and quality before providing a vehicle to others.

r

[Curt Goodrich]

Name one skill that doesn't benefit from practice and I'm guessing that I can name 5 that do. For me, that's really what this is all about.