Aussie Carbon Builders - New FB Community!

[CarbonNeutral]

Hey, I have no idea if posting to other communities is kosher or not, but seeing that this is a pretty obscure and specific one not catered for here, I thought it would be okay. Please feel free to yell at the screen if it's not.

So I've set up an FB community for any Aussies like me who are building in carbon as a place to talk crap, share info and groom new customers (which sounds sinister, but honestly, it's not. Selling custom carbon bikes is not a crime yet in most states....apparently.....)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bespo...51174871791907

There's not a whole lot there at the moment, but if this sort of thing is of interest to you, please feel free to join in.

BCBA-Avatar01.jpg

[Too Tall]

It is not a crime Warwick and welcome to VSalon. You may find more to like here than just a pretty face.

[CarbonNeutral]

Thanks! Actually I've been on VSalon for years but this is my latest bicycle incarnation. I'm pretending I'm a cat. Currently I've used up 3 of my lives, so we'll see how this one goes.

[e-RICHIE]

This one's going well Warwick.
Good luck with the page atmo.

[progetto]

Reincarnation is mans greatest tool, it ain't over till your done.

[Rody]

Warwick,

after 3 lives, I'd figured you would have realized you can make better money in ANY other industry...too bad cycling has a grip on your soul too

best wishes,

r

[Dazza]

more power to the local down under products
it is a good thing

[CarbonNeutral]

Warwick,

after 3 lives, I'd figured you would have realized you can make better money in ANY other industry...too bad cycling has a grip on your soul too

best wishes,

r

I'm a 'lifer' Rody, what can I say? :) There's also still a lot for me to accomplish, things I've yet to do (surprisingly) so I'm a bit jazzed to give them a crack after taking a bit of a break to get me head straight.

TBH, I was surprised how much I got into the whole carbon thing. I just got into it as a bit of fun/life experience/why the heck not type of thing, but after coming home with a carbon road frame I built from scratch by myself (With help from the illustrious Dave Bohm), I kinda got a taste of 'how the other half live' ( :P ) and kinda dug it.

The whole carbon scene is quite established in the US but over here there basically is none, so I'm keen to be a part of this new community and share ideas and resources. Doing this stuff is 200% harder here than it is in the US (I dare any of you to come here and try) so we need all the camaraderie and colab that we can get.

[crumpton]

with all the boat building down there i'm not sure why it would be 200% harder. what exactly is the problem?

[Mark Kelly]

Australian manufacturing has basically closed down. All the car companies are leaving in the next couple of years and they had a huge influence on available resources. For now, unless it's used for "houses and holes" (building or mining), getting anything made here is very hard. A peripherally related example I came across the other day: venture capital per head of population here is something like one quarter of that in the US which combined with the population difference means there is 1/50th of the total venture capital available.

On the other hand we have excellent resources in the CSIRO and the CRCs*, one of which is specifically devoted to fibre composites. Watch this government fuck that up.

*A CRC is a cooperative research centre, usually with a couple of academic / institutional members and a bunch of industrial partners. The one for composites is based in Geelong.

[progetto]

Politicians have so much to answer for with problems in society. So glad I'm into the last quarter of my working life.
Have you had anything to do with the guy's in Geelong?

Australian manufacturing has basically closed down. All the car companies are leaving in the next couple of years and they had a huge influence on available resources. For now, unless it's used for "houses and holes" (building or mining), getting anything made here is very hard. A peripherally related example I came across the other day: venture capital per head of population here is something like one quarter of that in the US which combined with the population difference means there is 1/50th of the total venture capital available.

On the other hand we have excellent resources in the CSIRO and the CRCs*, one of which is specifically devoted to fibre composites. Watch this government fuck that up.

*A CRC is a cooperative research centre, usually with a couple of academic / institutional members and a bunch of industrial partners. The one for composites is based in Geelong.

[crumpton]

but you can source fiber? resin? viola, bicycle frame.

[Mark Kelly]

Politicians have so much to answer for with problems in society. So glad I'm into the last quarter of my working life.
Have you had anything to do with the guy's in Geelong?

Peripherally, yes, a while ago I met Professor Fox when I was took my son to Deakin to check out courses he might be interested in. We ended up having a talk about a material I was trying to develop which had graduated acoustic impedance across it*. We were going to use the reverse brazil nut effect. That project never got off the ground but if Lyrebird flies I'll be talking to them about validating some of the work I've been doing on acoustics.

* the idea is that it matches the acoustic impedance of metal on one side and of polymers on the other but no step change in between.

[Mark Kelly]

but you can source fiber? resin? viola, bicycle frame.

If it were that easy, Nick, you wouldn't be in business.

Here's an example of what the lack of manufacturing resorce does: I'm currently building a fatigue testing machine to test to EN14781. The pneumatic cylinders and valves are cheaper and easier to source through RS components, who will basically fly them in from the UK, than they are to get locally.

[CarbonNeutral]

but you can source fiber? resin? viola, bicycle frame.

Damn Nick, why didn't me it was that easy! I would've done it years ago!

Seriously though, where do I start.....

• Go look for cheap machinery. Jump on ebay.com.au and search for a small horizontal mill or a curing oven. There isn't any.
• Took me a week to find some DP420/460.
• Aussie dollar is currently 0.72. Ungh.
• Freight costs from the US have gone up incrementally and substantially in the last 5 years.
• Cost of raw materials and consumables is 25-100% more than what it is in the US.
• You have a population of 300 million, we have 24 million. Stretched over the same area.
• Painters who can paint carbon well are few and far between and want the best part of $1000 just to clearcoat a frame.
• Enve is not taking on any new builders nor building proprietary stuff for new builders. If you want their forks and stuff you have to go through their local retail distributor, and let's just say we don't pay 200 bucks for a set of forks like you guys do. Enve sucks balls.
• There are not insignificant consumer-cultural variables that differ greatly between here the US, too complex to go into here.


I could go on and on and on but I won't.


The only reason it's a good time for carbon here is that a) nobody is doing it, and b) our auto and aerospace industries are in the shitter so guys are looking for things to do (A bit like the US in the 90's. Rasta anodising anyone?) As Mark mentioned too, we have a carbon fiber CRC down here in Geelong and as you rightly mention, a fairly well established carbon boat building industry, so there are definitely some resourcing and timing on our side.

[devlin]

Cost is our biggest hurdle and limited availability. The number of places that actually sell in the low numbers needed is very low. Usually they don't have what you need and you have to order it in and cost factors into it again. These aren't excuses just the facts that slow down the time it takes to pull it all together. Same with steel frames. Dazza is just about the only place besides Hillbrick that sells any hardware. Most of it comes from OS and shipping is an absolute pig on tube sets. A tube set that costs say $200 in the US will end up being $400 for us here and will go up as our dollar take s a nose dive in the next 6 months. Again not excuses just reason why it takes longer to get into it when the cash flow isn't there.

Edit *Warwick beat me

[CarbonNeutral]

Cost is our biggest hurdle and limited availability. The number of places that actually sell in the low numbers needed is very low. Usually they don't have what you need and you have to order it in and cost factors into it again. These aren't excuses just the facts that slow down the time it takes to pull it all together. Same with steel frames. Dazza is just about the only place besides Hillbrick that sells any hardware. Most of it comes from OS and shipping is an absolute pig on tube sets. A tube set that costs say $200 in the US will end up being $400 for us here and will go up as our dollar take s a nose dive in the next 6 months. Again not excuses just reason why it takes longer to get into it when the cash flow isn't there.

Edit *Warwick beat me

There's a good reason I went to outsourcing for Thylacine. Oh wait, that didn't work.

Yeah we're not making excuses, but having spent 20 years doing bikey stuff both in Australia, Japan and the US, doing stuff locally sucks the big one. Everytime you look for something or pick up the phone, you're just bracing yourself for the cost, the lack of availability, or the 'dickhead factor'.

The upside of course is that all important 'being the master of your own destiny' by sucking it up and just getting on with being self-sufficient. If I ever crack that I'll be super happy.

But hey, hence the BCBA Community. We need to get over coveting our own little sourcing secrets and start sharing resources and buying power or shit just won't happen.

[crumpton]

things cost what they cost. sure, sounds more expensive there but that doesn't equate to difficulty says the guy who lives in the US.

i'm still perplexed as to why the composite boat industry can be so strong. are you tapping those guys?

[crumpton]

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[crumpton]

Hey Warwick, where is your market? i think this is key to deciding just how expensive or difficult your venture is/would be. if you are trying to compete with US or even Euro carbon builders then I would agree you are clearly behind the 8 ball on COGS. If your market is down under then i'm not sure what the problem is. Things cost what they cost right? Ans your customers down there know that right?