And somehow we still call it a democracy

[Jonathan]

I don't think we can discount at all the techniques used to keep people from voting or how we marginalize votes. Districting/gerrymandering is done by both parties. Voter ID laws are leading to Drivers License Office closing in places known for civil rights abuses. My own state has limited early voting and voting locations after years of more open elections. ALEC is actively trying to change local electoral laws from winner take all to proportional in the states it benefits republicans. It's proof that the voting booth Is the key to change but to suggest if people just voted things would change is a pretty naive view of elections.

[dogrange]

I don't think we can discount at all the techniques used to keep people from voting or how we marginalize votes. Districting/gerrymandering is done by both parties. Voter ID laws are leading to Drivers License Office closing in places known for civil rights abuses. My own state has limited early voting and voting locations after years of more open elections. ALEC is actively trying to change local electoral laws from winner take all to proportional in the states it benefits republicans. It's proof that the voting booth Is the key to change but to suggest if people just voted things would change is a pretty naive view of elections.

Totally agree. Also note that your state has a very high % of convicted felons compared to most states and is one of the states that removes this civil right for life even after having "served ones time."

[Jonathan]

Totally agree. Also note that your state has a very high % of convicted felons compared to most states and is one of the states that removes this civil right for life even after having "served ones time."

That's not quite true. A felon can get her/his rights back after petitioning the Govenor. You then must travel to Tallahassee where twice per year the Govenor holds a large meeting and personally asks you questions and then decides if you should have your rights restored. It's a bizarre process that effectively describes what you wrote. It's not automatic and many people can't afford or get discouraged by the process not to mention many felons operate outside of the lines anyway.

[Dallas Tex]

I don't think we can discount at all the techniques used to keep people from voting or how we marginalize votes. Districting/gerrymandering is done by both parties. Voter ID laws are leading to Drivers License Office closing in places known for civil rights abuses. My own state has limited early voting and voting locations after years of more open elections. ALEC is actively trying to change local electoral laws from winner take all to proportional in the states it benefits republicans. It's proof that the voting booth Is the key to change but to suggest if people just voted things would change is a pretty naive view of elections.

I must wholeheartedly disagree. 60% of the voting age population does not vote in presidential elections. For mid term elections and local elections that % is even higher.

The tiny percentage of folks that are "prevented" from voting because of a felony conviction, limited early voting, voter ID laws, etc could not even approach 60%. I'd guess it's less than 1%.

The population has the key-to-the-kingdom. And a solid majority of the population choose not to to use it. As a result we get the system that this solid majority had chosen: unaccountable politicians serving themselves and party before country.

[Jonathan]

I must wholeheartedly disagree. 60% of the voting age population does not vote in presidential elections. For mid term elections and local elections that % is even higher.

The tiny percentage of folks that are "prevented" from voting because of a felony conviction, limited early voting, voter ID laws, etc could not even approach 60%. I'd guess it's less than 1%.

The population has the key-to-the-kingdom. And a solid majority of the population choose not to to use it. As a result we get the system that this solid majority had chosen: unaccountable politicians serving themselves and party before country.

Elections like everything else are decided in the margins. That's why so much money and effort is spent attracting and disenfranchising the margins. I get your point but the opposite is proven with every targeted ad or voter drive on both sides. Would republicans be concerned with the fantasy of voter fraud if they weren't afraid of the margins? What about the war on women or other campaigns the other side so effectively uses. Would they make jokes about the Obama phone? Of course not. It's about the margins. It's always about the margins.

[vertical_doug]

I must wholeheartedly disagree. 60% of the voting age population does not vote in presidential elections. For mid term elections and local elections that % is even higher.

The tiny percentage of folks that are "prevented" from voting because of a felony conviction, limited early voting, voter ID laws, etc could not even approach 60%. I'd guess it's less than 1%.

The population has the key-to-the-kingdom. And a solid majority of the population choose not to to use it. As a result we get the system that this solid majority had chosen: unaccountable politicians serving themselves and party before country.

Like Jon said, it is in the margins. 35% of the adult black population in Florida have a felony conviction. For overall United States, I think it is 2.5% of population. Not insignificant.

There are some concrete steps that are easy to implement. Election Tuesday should be a national holiday. There should be a news blackout on exit polls during the day as not to discourage voters on the West Coast, Hawaii and Alaska. Once the last polling station closes, the count and 'breathless' speculation provided by our media can begin.

[vertical_doug]

Another way to look at Florida is:
1.5million adults have felony records.
This is out of a total population of 19.89million. It is about 14% of the adult population. Percentage is higher for blacks as I highlighted in my previous post.

The difference in the presidential election in Florida in 2012 was 0.97%. Even in the Bush gogo year of 2004, the difference was about 5%.

In 2011 during his first year in Office, Gov Rick Scott restored the right to vote to 78 people. (there was a backlog of applications of about 30,000)

Obstacles are very real. The ACLU and others are trying to change the laws.

Steal from the rich and they call it a crime, steal from the poor, and they call it capitalism.

[Christian Fox]

It comes down to the margins because 60% of the population doesn't vote. I'm certain a breakdown of the 60% wouldn't be so equal demographics-wise that the same tiny margin would still exist had the 60% gone out and voted (I'm guessing it would favor the Democrats massively). It's much easier and cost effective to focus on the margin and not the majority that don't vote.

[Jonathan]

It comes down to the margins because 60% of the population doesn't vote. I'm certain a breakdown of the 60% wouldn't be so equal demographics-wise that the same tiny margin would still exist had the 60% gone out and voted (I'm guessing it would favor the Democrats massively). It's much easier and cost effective to focus on the margin and not the majority that don't vote.

If 100% of the able population voted the parties would reflect that and the "profits" of retail politics would still be in the margins.

[Dallas Tex]

Yeah. Yes. Getting more criminals to vote is definitely the best route to a better government......

[Will Neide]

Yeah. Yes. Getting more criminals to vote is definitely the best route to a better government......

Well, IMO, if they do the time they should still be able to vote.

That, and, well, Congress is full of people doing legally questionable things.

[Jaq]

the customer only gets to order from the menu, the cook decides what is on the menu.

the 158 families are the cooks. you, my friend, can democratically choose between a coke or a pepsi. There are no other choices.

Or, in other words, who pays the piper calls the tune.

Or Hobson's Choice.

P.s. On a related note, the David Lean movie "Hobson's Choice" is delightful.

[Dallas Tex]

Well, IMO, if they do the time they should still be able to vote.

Well, IMO a convicted rapist shouldn't have a voice or vote on laws related to rape and violence against women.

Would you support a requirement that we ask the victims of these criminals their opinion?

[vertical_doug]

Well, IMO a convicted rapist shouldn't have a voice or vote on laws related to rape and violence against women.

Would you support a requirement that we ask the victims of these criminals their opinion?

Victims are allow impact statements at parole hearings etc. While incarcerated, the felon has no right to vote. Once the criminal sentence has been served in full, the question is then how do you integrate them back into society. Continued voter disenfranchisement and other penalties only increase the rate of recidivism. This serves neither the ex-felon nor society as whole.

12% of felons are in prison for sexual assault/rape. Another 13% for murder/manslaughter. The other 75% are for property theft/fraud/drugs. Where do you want to draw the line?

Why should a person who pays no net tax be allowed to vote on how we spend taxes? I think it is a slippery slope.

(Okay, this last line is probably a red herring)

[Jonathan]

Well, IMO a convicted rapist shouldn't have a voice or vote on laws related to rape and violence against women.

Would you support a requirement that we ask the victims of these criminals their opinion?

I wouldn't. That isn't justice. We are all subject to wanting revenge when it involves us. Justice is a greater concept.
I'm don't lose any sleep at all over prisoner rights. I think the issue here in FL is that we don't have a transparent and consistent process to restore or not restore rights and we should. It's a political process now. It's a big tangent from the OP.

[Dallas Tex]

I'm don't lose any sleep at all over prisoner rights. I think the issue here in FL is that we don't have a transparent and consistent process to restore or not restore rights and we should. .

This is completely off topic, but you've bumped into a very important topic.

Either lock these guys up forever and throw away the key OR provide some clear path back to normalcy. I don't care if they ever vote again and I'd bet that they don't either.

Guy coming out has no money & a criminal record that prevents him from nearly every job you can think of: McDonlads, Wal-Mart, Janitor at a school. Some apartments won't even rent to you with a record.

[choke]

While incarcerated, the felon has no right to vote.

Maine and Vermont allow convicted felons to vote while they are incarcerated.

State Felon Voting Laws - Felon Voting - ProCon.org

[Corso]

I always vote. It’s what makes this country what it is, warts and all.

I’ve seen local elections decided by less than 20 votes.

But this time of the year makes me crazy. Politicians lying, or excuse me, “evolving”…making promises they can’t keep, fake accents when in certain parts of the country, 3rd party attack commercials, millions spent on media ( $ that could actually feed and house the needy), etc etc. ALL PARTIES. I’m not picking sides here.

It’s downright embarrassing.

But why do they do it?

Because the average voter, or the “margin” voters, are simpletons who vote on popularity, emotions and geography, not research or facts.

Our founding fathers came up with the electoral college basically for those reasons. Yes, the father of democracy were smart enough to know the popular vote may not be the best system.

[jclay]

Minnesotans opt for strengthening democracy by making it more inclusive instead of less, and by requiring disclosure of dark money contributions in state races. The other forty nine states ought to be doing the same thing.

Intro: "The day after the Jan. 6, 2021 riots at the Capitol in D.C., Minnesota legislators in the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party introduced legislation to address a host of election issues, from expanding voter registration to reforming campaign finance laws. With the state House of Representatives then under Republican control, the legislative package on elections stalled in committee.

But in the 2022 midterm elections, Minnesota Democrats won a trifecta in state government, flipping control of the House. This week, three committees of the Minnesota legislature advanced a bill that supporters say would increase voting access, combat dark money spending in elections, and more.

Titled the Democracy for the People Act, the bill was among the first legislative items introduced by Minnesota Democrats this year, a sign of its priority. The Senate Committee on Elections passed the bill on Feb. 7, with the House Committee on Elections and Senate Transportation Committee passing it the next day. The bill will be heard next week in the House Transportation, Finance, and Policy Committee before it can receive a vote by the full body. Democratic Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, who after the midterm election called to set up a “firewall” for free and fair elections in the state, said recently he would sign bills passed by the legislature that “protect the right to vote.”

Article: https://truthout.org/articles/minnes...4B9fe4WI_lNYZ8

[jclay]

Article Intro: "A bill proposed in the Florida Republican-controlled state legislature that aims to make it easier for public figures, including lawmakers, to sue news media for coverage they dislike would also have severe repercussions for anyone (not just those in the news industry) who use social media to point out someone else’s bigoted behavior.

In addition to granting greater leeways for defamation lawsuits for public figures against the press, House Bill 991 would also give Florida residents the right to sue others (both in the state or elsewhere in the U.S.) who describe their actions online as transphobic or homophobic, for sums as high as $35,000, and would not allow the truth to be used in defenses against such lawsuits."

https://truthout.org/articles/social...ti-press-bill/

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil.../?Tab=BillText

If they fail, the folks who would turn the USA into a fascist nation will not do so for a lack of trying.