irrational fear of flying

[Saab2000]

I get all this.

But but but. This is one thing to overbook a flight. Another one to let everyone board the plane. I can't understand why didn't they stopped these people before they reach the plane ?

I'm not in any way saying the situation in question was handled properly. Not at all. It should never have come to that. I only tried to give some explanation of some reasons why flights end up overbooked and why crew members, in some situations, have priority over paying customers.

That's in no way being OK with the awful situation that ensued. It was totally preventible.

[vertical_doug]

The Real Scandal of That Brutal United Video - The Atlantic

Next time, I am going to ask for 1,350.

[rwsaunders]

I'm 23/24 on the first class upgrade list from DTW-MKE this morning. Cops are swarming and getting ready to drag me ON the aircraft....

[NYCfixie]

Simply, there is no excuse for what happened and the CEO is a dumbass for not getting out in front of it and apologizing. Rather than offer someone the max $1350 to get off the plane, they have now lost millions in stock value and bad PR that will haunt them for years to come. I hope that doctor sues and gets a fortune - and he will.

I have shared my frustrations with United other places on this forum so rather than share again I thought I would share this video that truly captures the United Airlines spirit:

[vertical_doug]

How Algorithms and Authoritarianism Created a Corporate Nightmare at United - Global Guerrillas

a different take

[monadnocky]

Different situation, but a gripe about United nevertheless. Two years ago I took a trip to Asheville, and bought a really nice medium-sized buddha statue. Packed it in the stowed luggage. When we took it out, it was smashed in half. Like with a hammer - you could tell. Just sitting there, totally broken, a few hundred dollars worth of statue rendered useless. Maybe they thought we were smuggling drugs in the statue? Anyway, no explanation, no paperwork, nothing.

We called United and, after some time, they promised us that we would get the full retail price of the statue back, provided pictures and a receipt. Great.

Long story short, that was almost two years ago. Our calls now are met with "we have no record of this."

**** you, United. I don't know how you get away with this sh!t.

Afterthought: Yeah, I know it was probably TSA, but since there was no record of the smashing we were instructed to go through United. Odd.

[Shinomaster]

I was not smacked around yesterday on my way home from Boston.. even got a free Gin and Tonic.

[jclay]

How Algorithms and Authoritarianism Created a Corporate Nightmare at United - Global Guerrillas

a different take

An excellent observation and perspective with broad (and often frightening) applicability across society. Continuing to allow consolidation within the airline industry doesn't help the flying public either. People like the CEO of United know that competitive markets are for suckers and do all in their power to dismantle protective regulations in pursuit of short term gain (often apparent gain).

[rwsaunders]

It looks like someone is taking notice of the United event.

[NYCfixie]

They might as well show the dollar amount on the board. I think it is obvious by the recent United event that even $800 in flying vouchers will not do it for most people. Offer me $1000 cash, a hotel, a meal, and I might say yes.

Except for this one situation that happened several years ago, I cannot stand United. My wife and I will use up the rest of our United miles this fall and then we are done with them.

A few years ago we were flying "coach" using miles on United from Newark to Seattle by way of Newark to Atlanta to Seattle. It was early Monday morning and they "oversold" the Newark to Atlanta flight (obviously a business flight) and wanted our seats. Before we knew what was going on, the gate agent called our names over the announcement system and requested we come see them. The agent "politely" said they would like our seats for "business travelers" and if we were willing to fly through Minneapolis instead of Atlanta they could actually get us to our destination earlier. When I asked, "What else is in it for us?", they quickly responded with, "How about we get you there earlier and in First Class seats the entire way". This was an easy and obvious way to get 2 people to give up their seats.

Would it have been so difficult for United (ignoring the algorithm post above) to offer the max $1350 in cash/check (not flight vouchers) allowed when people are voluntarily "forced" to give up their seats to someone on that Chicago to Louisville flight? Why not add in a hotel, a meal, and something else to avoid the backlash. I'll bet at least 2 people on that flight would have chosen the money and accommodations over the $800 in flight vouchers offered.

It looks like someone is taking notice of the United event.

[SteveP]

interesting note on the whole " no laptops in the cabin from notable middle eastern locations ".

just spoke to a friend of mine who has departed from 3 of the selected middle east airports in the last 3 months...
his description of the security is.. " far, far tighter than in europe."\

he had to go through 3 security screenings at each and at 2 of them at each depart had to fire up his laptop to show the agent that it was functional.

this whole thing is a gift to american carriers.

[Matthew Strongin]

interesting note on the whole " no laptops in the cabin from notable middle eastern locations ".

just spoke to a friend of mine who has departed from 3 of the selected middle east airports in the last 3 months...
his description of the security is.. " far, far tighter than in europe."\

he had to go through 3 security screenings at each and at 2 of them at each depart had to fire up his laptop to show the agent that it was functional.

this whole thing is a gift to american carriers.

That sounds about right from the times I've flown through Doha, Qatar. Very strict security.

[becomingblue]

The algorithm probably worked fine many times before until this time when it didn't.

Companies HAVE to have algorithms and rigid procedures in place today. People used to make decisions back in the day, but how many times did that go wrong and they, the company and the employee, got in trouble. The employee, because they didn't make the perfect decision with the perfect attitude, and the company, because it couldn't demonstrate consistent, unbiased, robotic behavior from it's employees. We didn't accept people on the front lines making a decisions so this is what we have.

The algorithm and procedure writer unfortunately did not account for a seated passenger going berserk. They are likely working on an update now.

This situation was a debacle. The guy will be compensated.

[Saab2000]

Here's another viewpoint. It's not excusing what happened, but there's always another side to a story.

I Know You’re Mad at United but… (Thoughts from a Pilot Wife About Flight 3411) – The Pilot Wife Life

[Dave Thompson]

Great presentation of another side of the coin.

[jclay]

This had zero to do with threats to safety and security.

United Passenger "Removal": A Reporting and Management Fail | naked capitalism

[Mabouya]

Hey, the good doc should just be happy there weren't any gremlins tearing the plane apart in flight.

[Lionel]

I was kicked out of a United plane once in Chicago.... This was a funny story.

[vertical_doug]

The algorithm probably worked fine many times before until this time when it didn't.

Companies HAVE to have algorithms and rigid procedures in place today. People used to make decisions back in the day, but how many times did that go wrong and they, the company and the employee, got in trouble. The employee, because they didn't make the perfect decision with the perfect attitude, and the company, because it couldn't demonstrate consistent, unbiased, robotic behavior from it's employees. We didn't accept people on the front lines making a decisions so this is what we have.

The algorithm and procedure writer unfortunately did not account for a seated passenger going berserk. They are likely working on an update now.

This situation was a debacle. The guy will be compensated.

I don't disagree that algorithms are necessary. However, as algorithms get more complicated, people will not necessarily know all the factors the algorithms take into account. (Even in this instance, UA initially said the passenger was chosen at random, but the very fact they weight factors means it is a non-random selection) Heck, the programmer could put in a little piece of code somewhere saying 'chinese looking name' pick him...... senior management would never know since they are more than likely technically illiterate and if you try to explain the algorithm to them, their eyes quickly gloss over.)

The worst part is the corporation will claim IP to prevent disclosure on how the algo works. You can code discrimination. it may not be intentional, but biases get translated to code.

[monadnocky]

Here's another viewpoint. It's not excusing what happened, but there's always another side to a story.

I Know You’re Mad at United but… (Thoughts from a Pilot Wife About Flight 3411) – The Pilot Wife Life

This woman is absolutely, positively 100% correct (I assume, since I'm not an aviation lawyer). And I get her side of the story; I really do think that 99% of people would just get up and walk off the plane. I would, for sure. But IMHO she completely misses the point. We sympathize with the doctor because we can all picture ourselves in his shoes; we're rooting for him because he, in our minds, exemplifies a type of defiance towards the accumulated small indignities of flying these days. It's not a fact-based argument. It's an emotion-based argument, and throwing facts at us only makes her tone a little condescending.

We get it. 99% of workers in any industry are just like you and me, just trying to get home at the end of the day, and 99% of travelers are reasonable people who want the same. We know there are circumstances where, in order to keep us safe, you have to inconvenience us. But keep in mind that all of us just walked over from having our groins patted down by surly $7.25 an hour wage slaves, after finding no parking in the lot, after having to arrive at the airport three hours early just to find that the ticketing kiosks aren't even open until 6 and our flight is at 7 and the security line gets longer by the minute.

I never thought I'd be in a position to fault a "fact-based argument." It sounds absurd even as I type it out. But she's just not getting it.

Also, enough with the "because 9/11." Did you lose people you know on that day? I did. Watched it happen from across the Hudson. Maybe you did, I don't know. Your industry might corner the market in terms of the sequelae of those events, I'll admit, but you don't own them.

Don't get me wrong. I am as genuinely kind and appreciative as can be with airline employees because I really do think they have a tough job. I can't imagine doing it. And my respect for pilots runs deep - I know that, at the end of the day, it's his or her plane and I would never, ever disobey an instruction or command from the flight crew knowing that it might piss off the captain.

So, she's right in every conceivable fact-based way. Can't argue with any of it. But she's making the wrong argument, IMHO.