irrational fear of flying

[AngryScientist]

Here's another viewpoint. It's not excusing what happened, but there's always another side to a story.

I Know You’re Mad at United but… (Thoughts from a Pilot Wife About Flight 3411) – The Pilot Wife Life

Sorry Saab, she may have some good points. but that is one condescending "i'm smarter than you because i'm married to a pilot" woman. As above, she does have some good factual points, but comes across as too smug, and pro-airline IMO.

We all get the fact surrounding what happened, but there absolutely SHOULD be widespread public outrage at this incident. we can't just accept that what happened on that plane is "OK"

[Saab2000]

And there is widespread outrage. There's not much more to say about the event. The link I posted was simply a broader viewpoint and some background on how things work in aviation.

[sk_tle]

There are good points (the fact we agree on the rules when purchasing the tickets) in that link but I don't see what 9/11 and security has to do with that and she kept mentionning it.

[AngryScientist]

.....

[monadnocky]

Edit: The pronouns in my post above were directed at the author of the article. Not at Saab.

[Saab2000]

Edit: The pronouns in my post above were directed at the author of the article. Not at Saab.

Don't worry. I didn't take any offense.

This is a sad event for the victim, the other customers and the industry and I hope it never happens again.

[NYCfixie]

I am assuming that you were partially joking because even I don't think the airlines discriminate based on race but they do discriminate based on the price you paid, how often you fly with them, and a few other items. I do not want to generalize but one could argue they discriminate against those less fortunate.

I don't disagree that algorithms are necessary. However, as algorithms get more complicated, people will not necessarily know all the factors the algorithms take into account. (Even in this instance, UA initially said the passenger was chosen at random, but the very fact they weight factors means it is a non-random selection) Heck, the programmer could put in a little piece of code somewhere saying 'chinese looking name' pick him...... senior management would never know since they are more than likely technically illiterate and if you try to explain the algorithm to them, their eyes quickly gloss over.)

The worst part is the corporation will claim IP to prevent disclosure on how the algo works. You can code discrimination. it may not be intentional, but biases get translated to code.

[GrantM]

There are good points (the fact we agree on the rules when purchasing the tickets) in that link but I don't see what 9/11 and security has to do with that and she kept mentionning it.

The pilot's wife is referencing the fact that everyone on board the plane is safer because of rules and compliance.
Since 9/11 there are many more interactions with security people who have the power to demand you comply.

It's a bad idea to not follow their commands while on a plane or in an airport. Most people realize they are
going to be the loser in that confrontation. Interaction with law enforcement is one sided. I think in this case,
any passenger must separate the poor service, planning and policies of an airline with compliance to a security officer.

It is sort of like yelling at the cashier because she's there, and you're having an issue with the company, the person in front
of you may be a convenient target for your frustration, but they also aren't the source or solution to your problem.
I think that's half the reason people hate airlines, cable companies, and every other situation where "the system" is
screwing with you, and the representatives of the company you're dealing with are not responsible or empowered
to sort out your issue. That drives people nuts.

-g

[NYCfixie]

This explains so much of life today. Our lives have become more complicated and these types of industries are more interested in revenue than customer service. There once was a time when you could have both; a company that made a decent profit and happy customers.

...I think that's half the reason people hate airlines, cable companies, and every other situation where "the system" is
screwing with you, and the representatives of the company you're dealing with are not responsible or empowered
to sort out your issue. That drives people nuts.

-g

[busdriver1959]

Here's another viewpoint. It's not excusing what happened, but there's always another side to a story.

I Know You’re Mad at United but… (Thoughts from a Pilot Wife About Flight 3411) – The Pilot Wife Life

She makes a lot of points but only one of them is valid. The first two points involve the right to kick off a paying passenger. She says they can do that because it's written in the fine print. Does that mean that I can hand you a note that says I have the right to kick you in the balls and you can't do anything but stand there and get kicked in the balls? The passenger paid good money up front and the airline agreed to provide a service in exchange for that money. Then, at the last second, they violate the agreement by refusing to provide the service. All the fine print in the world doesn't make that right. This isn't about legalisms, it's about basic right and wrong.
The third point makes the claim that the airline had to put the crew on the full flight in order to avoid disrupting more flights. Bullshit. There's a really cool invention a guy named Lear came up with many years ago. It's a little tiny jet that only carries a few people. You can rent them at a moments notice. That's what my company does when we need a crew somewhere else in order to keep customers happy. It's expensive but necessary if you care about your customers.
She also says it's not the airlines fault because they can't plan for this. I understand that the whole thing was the result of the pilot shortage. Why is there a pilot shortage? Because the regionals pay their new hires rates that qualify them for food stamps. The pay is so low because the trunk carriers play the regionals against each other in order to force the cost of their services lower and lower. There isn't a pilot shortage here. There is a shortage of pilots willing to work for shitty pay. For every pilot in the US that has an Airline Transport Pilot rating and is flying, there's one more with the rating that isn't using it. It's a very expensive rating to get. Things have to be really bad for that many pilots to spend that kind of money for no return and it's all the fault of the trunk airlines.
She makes the point that people are claiming racism but the airline didn't choose him based on race. Well, she got that one right.
She claims the only lawbreaker was the passenger. He needed to obey the federal law enforcement officers. Unfortunately these guys weren't law enforcement officers at all. They are from a private security force. Rent-a-cops don't have law enforcement authority and they certainly aren't allowed to assault people.
She says that the crew that was put on the plane shouldn't have been verbally abused. I don't know where they were when this went down. If they saw it and didn't stop it, they deserve all the abuse they got. If they weren't there, she's right.
The correct way to handle this situation is to offer money to volunteers to give up their seats. Keep raising the offer until you get enough volunteers or you hit the price of the Lear jet. If you get to that piont, rent the jet. That's the cost of customer service. It ain't rocket science.

[rwsaunders]

Latest woes...

United Airlines passenger 'stung by scorpion' on flight
United Airlines passenger 'stung by scorpion' on flight - BBC News

[NYCfixie]

...I understand that the whole thing was the result of the pilot shortage. Why is there a pilot shortage? Because the regionals pay their new hires rates that qualify them for food stamps. The pay is so low because the trunk carriers play the regionals against each other in order to force the cost of their services lower and lower. There isn't a pilot shortage here. There is a shortage of pilots willing to work for shitty pay. For every pilot in the US that has an Airline Transport Pilot rating and is flying, there's one more with the rating that isn't using it. It's a very expensive rating to get. Things have to be really bad for that many pilots to spend that kind of money for no return and it's all the fault of the trunk airlines...

A very good friend of mine who I have known since college is living proof of this. My friend, after college, lived in his Dad's house out west so that he could save money while he got his pilots license and hours. His father was a military pilot who retired and started flying for Delta; my friend was not in the military so he had to pay for the training and hours himself. He finally got a job at Continental Express (pre merger with United). He did the shitty pay, shitty hours, and shitty hotels (when he did have to stay over somewhere usually due to being over his hours) for a number of years with the regionals before he had enough. Even though his father had seniority at Delta he could not even get an interview at Delta or any other large carrier although he had more than enough hours, a stellar record, and would relocate anywhere. He kept being told that the airlines want to keep pilots at regionals because they make more money on those mostly business flights.

My friend finally gave up and interviewed at FedEx and UPS. He got a job at UPS and says his life is so much better because he does not have to deal with the BS of moving people, he is on an Asia route and only flies very few days a month, and makes much more money than his father does at Delta (Boeing 757 EWR to DEN) even though his father has many more years of seniority.

[EricKeller]

so there is another story about a couple on the way to their wedding that got kicked off a half-empty United plane because they weren't in their assigned seats. I assume they had moved to steerage+ seats because of what the United person said. I have witnessed with my own eyes a lowly United employee telling people they couldn't move to an empty exit aisle seat because they didn't pay for it. Seats stayed empty the whole flight. You couldn't pay me enough to nickle and dime people like that. And I know the front line staff aren't paid that well, so they are either sociopaths or torn up about it.

[NYCfixie]

And then there was this before take off on a Nippon Airlines flight to LA

[NYCfixie]

And another from a few days ago. WTF is happening on airlines these days? Oh wait, I know. If you treat us like wild animals we are going to act like wild animals.

[NYCfixie]

And let us not forget this one also from a few days ago that was initiated by a Pilot work stoppage/slowdown:

[Tom]

I was just having this conversation with Karen last night. At lunch her coworkers were talking about long flights, one person is flying to Hawaii in one shot from the east coast. The guy from Tanzania won, though. Her boss said she just takes a sleeping pill so she dozes, wakes up and she's there. Karen said she wouldn't want to do that. Neither would I... a good brawl breaks out I'd be mad if I missed it. Or some nimrod landed on me when I couldn't get out of the way.

One overnight coming back from Norway there were about five young guys getting drunk and every once in a while they'd either start singing or shouting. The steward spoke to them more than once. People were getting annoyed and then the old guy behind them rolled up a magazine and started whacking them one after the other like he was playing the xylophone. Everybody started laughing and cheering... they were suitably embarrassed and shut up for the rest of the flight.

[Corso]

I’m not entirely sure “the paying customer is always right” when it comes to being on a plane.

In-flight staff has the right to do what they need to do for the safety of all, including themselves.

Perhaps low-watt tazers, or Vulcan Nerve Pinch training…
Vulcan.jpg

[becomingblue]

Flight gets canceled = let's riot? I don't get the seat I want on a Southwest flight so I'm going to start beating on other passengers = airlines fault? Gimmie a break. Could be that a big percentage of the flying public are morons that believe that they are entitled to be treated like Lear Jet class passengers even though they are getting on a city bus that has had wings bolted onto it.

I enjoy watching people get revved up at the airport because they are so clueless. People going irate when they try to bring banned stuff through security, dragging such a large and heavy bag onto the plane that they can't left it or fit it into the overhead because other people have already put their stuff in there, as soon as the plane stops at the gate people jump up from their seats and stand half cocked for 10 minutes until the door is opened and the 100 people in front of you file out, etc.

And if the airlines try to enforce stuff, like check that bag, turn off your electronic device, don't punch fellow passengers, etc., they get called to Congress to explain how they can be so bad. I know why, they are dealing with a bunch of morons that think if they pay $150 for ticket to where ever, they are entitled to be treated like royalty.

I know the airlines aren't the best at times and pull dumb stunts but to blame them for actions of moronic passengers is misplaced. When you walk in the door to an airport terminal, people need to turn off the attitude. There is likely no other civilian area that is as tightly controlled and rules enforced than at an airport and in an airplane.

[NYCfixie]

I am not sure I agree with you.

It was directly the fault of Spirit Airline and its Pilots that those flights were cancelled. I am not saying that should have induced a riot, but the blame for the impetus falls on Spirit.

As for the other, I am not sure those people were fighting over a seat but again I go back to my earlier point, if the airlines create an environment where people are treated like wild animals (basic self control notwithstanding), then they must take some blame related to the outcome. Why doesn't Southwest just assign seats like everyone else? They are asking for people to rush the plane and grab seats before others do.

As for the carry-on, that is another Airline self-inflicted wound. If they started charging for bags what did they think was going to happen?

And yes, social media is bringing more of these incidents to a larger audience but as someone who has been flying for more than 40 years (including as a child at my parents expense), I do not recall this level of unrest in the past. It is getting worse and I for one am not okay with this being "the new normal".

Flight gets canceled = let's riot? I don't get the seat I want on a Southwest flight so I'm going to start beating on other passengers = airlines fault? Gimmie a break. Could be that a big percentage of the flying public are morons that believe that they are entitled to be treated like Lear Jet class passengers even though they are getting on a city bus that has had wings bolted onto it.

I enjoy watching people get revved up at the airport because they are so clueless. People going irate when they try to bring banned stuff through security, dragging such a large and heavy bag onto the plane that they can't left it or fit it into the overhead because other people have already put their stuff in there, as soon as the plane stops at the gate people jump up from their seats and stand half cocked for 10 minutes until the door is opened and the 100 people in front of you file out, etc.

And if the airlines try to enforce stuff, like check that bag, turn off your electronic device, don't punch fellow passengers, etc., they get called to Congress to explain how they can be so bad. I know why, they are dealing with a bunch of morons that think if they pay $150 for ticket to where ever, they are entitled to be treated like royalty.

I know the airlines aren't the best at times and pull dumb stunts but to blame them for actions of moronic passengers is misplaced. When you walk in the door to an airport terminal, people need to turn off the attitude. There is likely no other civilian area that is as tightly controlled and rules enforced than at an airport and in an airplane.