Muller, Flynn, et al.

[jclay]

No, not every politician is guilty of helping the rich and huge corporations (as in special treatment that leaves the rest of us at their mercy).

And yes, I am extremely outraged, as is anyone who is paying attention to the deep details -- some of this stuff is irreversible (e.g. the 6th mass extinction that the Anthropocene era is causing), and some irreversible without either another Great Depression that wakes people up, or a violent revolution, which is rarely for the better (e.g. eliminating the estate tax and thus enshrining dynastic wealth, while allowing the complete corruption of the political system with cash).

This is not just average damage, and even if it were, it has gone on so long that we're at several tipping points -- environmental, fiscal, political and societal -- that are being ignored because too many people care about the superficial.

Our discussion was about the lunatic in the White House, not the other team's picks, but yes, I am extremely disappointed by Bill Clinton and Obama (and Hillary Clinton). It's not because I think liberalism is a problem, but because they claimed to be such leading up to their election, and then pushed through all the Heritage Foundation (read, Koch Brothers) ideas that Republicans like Bush Sr. tried but failed to pass. Bush Sr. negotiated NAFTA, but Clinton passed it. He also signed off on Telecom deregulation, explosion of the non-violent prison population with the 'super-predator' crime bill, the Welfare Reform that merely made more people more desperate, the militarization of the police force a la the 1999 WTO protests, the repeal of Glass-Steagal. It turns out, that he and Gingrich had sealed the deal to privatize Social Security when the Lewinsky scandal hit -- I've never been so happy to hear about bad behavior from Clinton. And he was a rapist according to a lot of women.

Obama talked hope and change, but while he acted in a dignified manner, what he did was a badly mixed bag. He allowed drilling in the Arctic twice, though not full-scale. He protected a lot of habitat through establishing National Monuments, but didn't make it permanent. I don't hate him too much on that account because the Ocean monuments allowed for the healing of the fish populations that had been crushed by overfishing, and he was faced with Mitch McConnell who said his proudest achievement was 8 years of obstructionism -- so it's hard to work with that. However, he signed off on making some of the Bush Jr. tax cuts for the wealthiest permanent. He expanded the spy apparatus, the drone assassination program, jailed more journalists than all other presidents combined for leaking war crimes committed by Bush Jr. and Obama's administrations, accelerated aid to Saudi Arabia in their genocidal attacks on Yemen (Trump is 10x worse, still), funded two sides of jihadis in Syria, purposefully killed the idea of single payer option in the ACA, stood by while the rentacops beat the shit out of protesters on Wall Street and at the DAPL pipeline, appointed Ajit Pai to the FCC, destabilized Libya to protect the petro-dollar, and so on. He did some good stuff about mileage standards, and handled the BP oil spill so-so.

Hillary Clinton is the one that pushed for the destabilization of Libya (she thought she was a genius and could get it to work out if she could only pump in enough arms to the 'right' side). She says one thing to the public and another to her donor base wrt taxes, financial regulation, trade deals, health care and fracking. She is consistent about hating the NRA, protecting a woman's right to abortion (though she's not as consistent on that as Bernie), and gay rights (but that wasn't until recently). She's a super war-hawk, and even more than Obama, believes in the supremacy of the professional class. Trump likes billionaires whether they are competent or not, but Clinton surrounds herself with Yaleys and Hahvard grads on the assumption that if only everyone could be like them, the world would be fine. I respect talent, but that doesn't mean they are the only people who deserve a good life while everyone else is 'free' to pick up scraps. She does.

That said, Trump is the worst President ever. He's stupid, vulgar, corrupt, pathologically dishonest, mentally unstable, cruel and vindictive in the most petty ways. In every way that Bill Clinton and Obama were bad, he's 10x worse, and is both too stupid and too uncaring to care about the outcome. He wouldn't care if the whole world burned as long as a crowd tells him he's smart and handsome and the best and has the biggest button that really works. Dog help us if we aren't smart enough as a nation to run his ass out in handcuffs and a straightjacket before we're toast.

Totally f**king gets it. Totally. Matthew, too. Thank you both for going to the time and trouble to put that in black and white.

[mjbabcock]

Totally f**king gets it. Totally. Matthew, too. Thank you both for going to the time and trouble to put that in black and white.

Agreed.

[thollandpe]

I received a PM from another member, cordial as it was, about Trumps treatment of women and my opinion of it. Yes, it is questionable. I can't imagine how Clinton lost to someone who had a sound byte come out in a crucial time of the election saying he just grabbed women by their pussies. It is unfathomable to me. But people STILL elected him.

You blew it.

If your response to that challenge had just been that, or something as simple and brief, we'd have all been the better for it.

[0nelove]

You blew it.

If your response to that challenge had just been that, or something as simple and brief, we'd have all been the better for it.

Great reply, it adds a lot to the discussion. I know you are but what am I? Eyes rolling.

Anyhow, on that note, thanks to everyone else for a pretty good discussion. To bring things back, all this "worst president ever," (which is a pretty bold statement considering its only been a year and the effects of his actions have yet to be seen) and the investigation of the Russiagate investigation are not helping the cause except to relieve some sort of imaginary shame for being a part of it, willing or not. Maybe most dis-likable is more reasonable at this point?

[Corso]

Agreed.

AGREED, with everything BUT some of the colorful, emotional descriptions in the last paragraph. THANK YOU for pointing out a few faults of Obama & the Clintons, as most on the left are content to turn a blind eye or simply say “debunked”.

If Trump is to be “run out”, let it be done because the FACTS justify it, not the results of the 90% negative media, attack books, amateur psychologist, (real ones are not supposed to declare someone unfit until they have personally evaluated them-so much for ethics lately). Yeah, I get it, you guys HATE him.

But guess what? Just because I’m in the extreme minority posting here, rest assured there are others on this site who have a bit more respect for the President. Just like the false polls claiming Hillary was a shoe-in, some just don’t want to under the name calling and branding from the left. Some think “why bother debating?” I’m starting to lean that way myself. Perhaps some of you who are so angry should have paid closer attention before the election, and worked harder for the others running.

I was dumfounded when Obama won, as I could not justify anything he did in his past (maybe if so many things were not “sealed”) to make it to the White House. Except he made it to the White House! So I respected him for simply that. Apparently several here can’t express the same courtesy, as a “stupid, racist moron, etc etc” was still SMART enough to also get there. In the only election he ever ran in.

Until the Muller investigation finishes and actually submits it’s findings-rather than rumors and “leaks” (that anyone can declare from the famous “unknown source-BS), what more can we really say on this thread?

[ides1056]

Again, this left-right thing is to me totally beside the point, when at the end of the day it's an up/down thing, powerful v powerless. A democracy is best measured by how the latter are treated. By this measure our country is going down the tubes rapidly.

[Too Tall]

Interesting thread. I've got nothing to add as the willing moderator it does seem like the conversation is stalled. Let's put this one to sleep and start another thread. I'd love to see more conversations examining governance, rule of law or perhaps why the job of governing is often lost in the muddle of "winning".

I'll shut this down in a few hrs. unless I hear a strong reason not to.