We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

[Dallas Tex]

Legitimate research isn't being done on Internet forums....

Did I or anyone else imply that it was?

......the gen pop just posts crap, true or not, that supports their world view, just like you have. .

I've not posted any links to any research.




If you're going to quote my posts, please keep your responses closer to things that i actually said.

[vvv321]

Did I or anyone else imply that it was?



I've not posted any links to any research.




If you're going to quote my posts, please keep your responses closer to things that i actually said.

Dave’s link addressed a very specific point and it addressed it very well. Generally I don’t think there is much value when these discussions devolve into an online ‘link battle’.


I guess you didn't say that. I suppose you didn't post the link though.

[King Of Dirk]

This is EXACTLY why we have professionals that have dedicated their entire life to research...

The challenge isn't conducting legitimate research. The challenge is creating an environment in which the research isn't viewed as suspect or corrupted from the word "go." The consumers of the research have limitless examples of bought-and-paid-for results. Getting the signal through the noise is at least a Herculean task, and maybe even a Sisyphean one.

That's not the fault of the legitimate researcher, nor of the consumer. On a philosophical level, I care how beautiful a symphony might be. On a practical level, it's not worth much if nobody ever hears it.

[vvv321]

The challenge isn't conducting legitimate research. The challenge is creating an environment in which the research isn't viewed as suspect or corrupted from the word "go." The consumers of the research have limitless examples of bought-and-paid-for results. Getting the signal through the noise is at least a Herculean task, and maybe even a Sisyphean one.

That's not the fault of the legitimate researcher, nor of the consumer. On a philosophical level, I care how beautiful a symphony might be. On a practical level, it's not worth much if nobody ever hears it.

Of course there is "research" being done by lobbies, etc, however that is not legitimate research, and I'll agree the Gen pop is not equipped to truly understand the difference. I guess since there are challenges, which there are in any endeavor we should just not do it THIS TIME, unlike all of the other research that society accepts, lauds, and even celebrates.

Yeah, lets give up at the start line. It's too hard.

[Dallas Tex]

Dave’s link addressed a very specific point and it addressed it very well. Generally I don’t think there is much value when these discussions devolve into an online ‘link battle’.


I guess you didn't say that. I suppose you didn't post the link though.

congratulations, you've turned a friendly discussion of folks trying to make some sense of a tragic situation into another meaningless online argument.

I'm out.

[guido]

This is simply blatantly false. The FBI statistics don't lie. Here's a little piece. You don't even hear about most of them. And when you do, the press quickly covers up the race of the shooter if it isn't white.

Oh come on. 12 days of statistics tells everything one needs to know about gun violence and race. And I have a bridge you might be interested in...

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

[David Tollefson]

Oh come on. 12 days of statistics tells everything one needs to know about gun violence and race. And I have a bridge you might be interested in...

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Then go here and draw your own conclusions.

[ericpmoss]

This is simply blatantly false. The FBI statistics don't lie. Here's a little piece. You don't even hear about most of them. And when you do, the press quickly covers up the race of the shooter if it isn't white.

I have to push back on this. Those "not lying" numbers aren't broken down according to motive, letting the original author imply whatever motive he wants, both to the killer and to the reporters. Race is relevant to the news report when the shooting is motivated by race, and we know it is when it is accompanied by a manifesto mirroring race-baiting language used by leading political figures and dog-whistling media. Reports don't need to say, "The shooter, who was black, was arguing with the victims, who were black, about his choice of girlfriend, who is also black."

Here's my Cliff's Notes analysis:
1. We will always have mean people, unstable people, desperate people, those susceptible to brainwashing.
2. We *can* help desperate people by guaranteeing physical and mental health care, mandating a living wage, housing homeless.
3. We *can* stop egging on unstable and gullible people by not dog-whistling and talking about 'brown invasions'.
4. We can't just switch off mean people.
5. We *can* reduce the chance that mean/unstable/gullible/desperate people have the tools to do so much damage.
6. We *aren't* doing any of it because most politicians are bought and paid for by lobbyists. The NRA funnels millions
to McConnell, and McConnell won't even let debate happen in the Senate. The business lobby funnels millions to
Congress (mostly but not exclusively to Republicans) and we don't get mental health funding, or housing for homeless,
or medical care -- 500,000 medical bankruptcies last year. Why? "We can't afford it" Meanwhile, $80 Billion EXTRA
for weapons, with only a handful of dissenting votes. Almost nothing good for average people gets done any more.
Fix that, and a lot of motivation disappears. Fix the overly permissive gun laws, and a lot of the mass slaughters do, to.

[guido]

Donald Trump and Lax Gun Laws Are Tearing America Apart | The New Yorker

[davids]

This is simply blatantly false. The FBI statistics don't lie. Here's a little piece. You don't even hear about most of them. And when you do, the press quickly covers up the race of the shooter if it isn't white.

Oh irony.

Please, everyone. Do your own research on the "news" website linked in this post, and its loathsome founder Ron Unz.

[King Of Dirk]

Of course there is "research" being done by lobbies, etc, however that is not legitimate research, and I'll agree the Gen pop is not equipped to truly understand the difference. I guess since there are challenges, which there are in any endeavor we should just not do it THIS TIME, unlike all of the other research that society accepts, lauds, and even celebrates.

Yeah, lets give up at the start line. It's too hard.

I don't deserve your sarcasm or your condescension, and your contempt for the "Gen pop" is palpable. But the hoi polloi at whom you sneer sway elections in this country, and therefore SCOTUS appointments (and funding for research). Cluing them in on how little you think of them isn't a winning strategy.

You give up if you wish. I've been working on this issue for over fifteen years, so I'm afraid your rhetorical "start line" is too far in the rearview for me to even see anymore. Over that period I've found the group of people yelling "we need to do something!" almost never includes anyone who's actually fucking doing anything.

[Sbti]

Yup, they be a comin' to take yo guns. Lets all fall down to our knees to thank Jeebus that we were blessed to dodge the bullet of a popular vote winner who had "server" problems.

[Sbti]

And Squinty the Botox prostitute illegal alien ( lesbian porn is important), ( documents will be be coming soon, Dotard promises) chain migration parents are still here. Send her back. Send her back. Did she wear her stripper heels and "I don't really care, do you?" jacket along side the consoler in chief?

[King Of Dirk]

A perfect case in point.

It's fun when people put those dumb rednecks down for being too stupid to see the light, but then say something really intelligent like "popular vote winner." You can't "win" a contest that isn't being held. In 2016 it was 270 to win, and Hillary failed. Due, in part, to being so smart that she thought it was a good idea to stand in rural Ohio and proclaim her intent to put a bunch of coal miners out of work.

If that's smart, I sure am glad I'm stupid.

[Sbti]

Goobers gotta' goob. Should be fun at the next tiki torch Nuremberg Fat Nixon rally. Still going with "lock her up" or "send her back". Wait, Wut? Watchoo talkin' about? The first prostitute, third lady. Yes, send her back.

[WMdeR]

Goobers gotta' goob. Should be fun at the next tiki torch Nuremberg Fat Nixon rally. Still going with "lock her up" or "send her back". Wait, Wut? Watchoo talkin' about? The first prostitute, third lady. Yes, send her back.

Dear Sbti,

I don't think this post really captures the original intent of the discussion, unless it was a really sexy troll to start with. Have we had enough or do we need to start tossing dirt clods here too?

Best Regards,

Will

[Too Tall]

Pssst. Civility much?

Please, this is Vsalon we can and do maintain some respect for each other regardless of position...well not THAT but you know what I mean.

Get it together sisters and brothers get it to f888kin'-gether.

This is the easy part.

[thollandpe]

Oh irony.

Please, everyone. Do your own research on the "news" website linked in this post, and its loathsome founder Ron Unz.

Yuck. And yes ironic that we're how many posts down from that link before somebody points out the quality of the source.

[Colinmclelland]

What's anyone gonna say that hasn't already been said again and again and again?

DavidS is right. If you want to see change, typing about it on a bike forum is a waste of time - go do something in the real world.

We had a deeply destructive local MP (actually an ex PM), sitting on a big local margin. Safe seat. The Liberal Party here nominated him again. The local electorate has evolved and didn't want him. I think the turning point for the electorate was when he campaigned for no on a referendum (which we shouldn't have needed but that's another story) and then abstained from the actual vote (because he would have voted no) while 75% of "his" electorate voted yes. Anyhoo, lot's of work, but he got voted out. Be the change you want to see and all that new age bollocks. Vote for change.

I get that everywhere is different, but what shocked me was not that there had been another gun massacre, but that some random guy in the street was being called a hero "for readying his gun and running towards the shooting" WTAF is a random guy in the street doing with a gun?

Guns may not kill people, but nutters with guns can kill a lot more people than nutters without guns.

[dgaddis]

I get that everywhere is different, but what shocked me was not that there had been another gun massacre, but that some random guy in the street was being called a hero "for readying his gun and running towards the shooting" WTAF is a random guy in the street doing with a gun?

Guns may not kill people, but nutters with guns can kill a lot more people than nutters without guns.

Very true. But they're also great for defending yourself and your family against the nutters. A family friend of ours grandparents recently held a guy at gunpoint until the police showed up. He was pounding on their back screen (all glass) door at like 2am yelling for help asking to come in saying someone was after him. They wouldn't open the door and then he tried to force his way in. Grandpa pulled a pistol and held him there till the cops showed up. Turns out he had broken into another house just down the street earlier that night.

My buddy Mark that I used to ride with, his son and daughter in law had a baby last year. The daughter in law and baby were visiting Mark and his wife (Mark's son was at work at the time), then went home, just a few blocks away. Baby was ~two months old at the time. She let their dog out into the backyard and the dog went nuts barking at a shed. Daughter in law got nervous, called Mark, he went over there and found a crackhead (who they later found out had a bunch of priors, including violent offenses) in the shed. Mark took a pistol with him and held the guy till the cops came. Now, it's easy to say she should have called the cops first and not Mark...but I also get the hesitation to call the cops just because the dog is barking at a shed, could have easily been a raccoon or opossum or a cat, which is what Mark expected to find. But before he left his house something told him to take his pistol. Mark is truly one of the nicest and kindest people I've ever met, he's not some vigilante wannabe who's hoping to get in a fight with someone. He doesn't carry his pistol everywhere he goes, he doesn't have a closet full of guns, he's not a right winger, not an NRA member, etc. I didn't know he even owned a gun. No telling whether that dude would have tried to get into the house, but if he had he'd have found a postpartum woman and an ~8 week old baby - two very helpless victims.

I know everyone likes to talk about how the good guy with a gun is a myth, but I think that kind of stuff happens a lot more often than many people think. It doesn't usually make the news, most folks don't hear about it. That's two instances I know of, of people I personally know, just within the last year, and neither one made the news. I don't know this guy, but this happened here in town just a few weeks ago.

Anyhow. I say all that to say - why did a random guy in the street have a gun? 'Cause crazy shit happens all the time. I don't carry a gun when I'm out and about (anywhere I feel like I might need one - I don't go there!), but I understand why some people do. I also think we should have more gun control though, and I'm all for a comprehensive study of gun violence including people using them for defense, even if a shot isn't fired. If all of it was tracked and recorded we'd get a clearer picture, which can only be a good thing.