Middle east.

[Blue Jays]

"...Answer quickly please - yes or no?..."

Iranian military used missiles to shoot-down the exact aircraft at which they were aiming said missiles.

[gregl]

Do you really think that downing - if the news reports are correct that it was an Iranian missile that shot down the commercial Ukrainian 737 - was intentional? Do you believe that Iran targeted a commercial plane from the Ukraine?

Answer quickly please - yes or no?

Fog of war. See MH17, KAL902, KAL707 or IA655 for more info.

Greg

[davids]

Iranian military used missiles to shoot-down the exact aircraft at which they were aiming said missiles.

I'm disappointed in your response.

Rather than stand by your post or walk back your accusation, you say nothing.

You appear to just be trying to provoke.

[woodworker]

Indicia that this was not thought out and counterproductive (setting aside moral issues, international law, and Constitutional requirements):

1. Even Republican senators who usually support President Trump found the briefing to be entirely unconvincing;

2. Military brass cannot identify any imminent threat to U.S. forces or interests;

3. Lack of a rationale for the killing;

4. Failure to articulate how this fits into a broader Middle East policy (i.e. how does this relate to removing troops from Syria, the encouragement of Israeli settlements in the Golan Heights, approval of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, pull-out of the Iran nuclear deal).

If that's not troubling enough, the departure of Mattis and the gutting of the State Department should raise more red flags.

If you're going to murder a cabinet member and military leader of a key country in the Middle East, not some rogue organization, you ought to have a strong rationale that you can place before Congress and the electorate. I'm not seeing that here.

...and, yes, my opinion of Trump does play a role in this, as it would the evaluation of any leader who is making important foreign policy decisions. However, I'm perfectly willing to set aside my opinion of him as a bigot, crackpot and greedy little prick, and evaluate this decision on the merits. Any real insights here as to how the lever that our orangutan pulled this time advances American interests?

[Blue Jays]

"...Just remember, 176 people died. Their deaths are a tragedy..."

Agreed. Iran should conduct a comprehensive investigation including international experts examining flight recorders.

[HorsCat]

Sometimes, when it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, ya gotta just call it out for the duck that it is.

In this case, that duck is a monumentally insecure malignant narcissist who needed to show the MAGAverse what a tough guy he is and who needed to distract from an impeachment inquiry. Well, we're distracted, and the MAGAverse is sufficiently wowed. Mission Accomplished!

[ChristianWong]

You appear to just be trying to provoke.

I would have to agree here. My question of where he got the information that Iranians were in the streets grieving under fear of punishment if they did not went unanswered as well.

[jerk]

Agreed. Iran should conduct a comprehensive investigation including international experts examining flight recorders.

they will and are. ICAO is already sending folks there.

[Corso]

so don't come on here making stuff up and implying a falsehood in order to prove a point that doesn't have anything to do with the falsehood. I don't know anyone who was gung ho about drone strikes and against interventionism in the Mideast- and no one here is saying anything to that effect.

Not making anything up. I didn't say, as you said, anyone was "gung ho", I stated that no one C O M P L A I N E D about them here, on the Salon about all those drone strikes.
If they bothered you -which I believe they did - I don't recall any lengthy posting here about that. Am I wrong?

I applaud your protest efforts, I really do. Obviously this is a topic you are invested in. But don't accuse me of making up stuff, simply because my view is different.

[j44ke]

Just weird that a civilian plane was up in the air hours after the rocket attack, though reporter friends flew in and out of Chechnya and Sarajevo and other places in civilian planes under significantly more dangerous conditions so I guess maybe not so weird. But you would think the Iranians would want clear sky for just this very reason. But perhaps there was an agreement, and the Iranians knew there wasn't going to be a retaliation after the rocket attack. The three hour notice the US got that allowed them to secure personnel and assets and thus avoid casualties might not have been intelligence but the Iranians themselves.

The part that doomed the plane could have been when it turned around, if that's indeed what it did. And if it did indeed turn around before it was shot down (so many variables here) and not because it had been hit. S15 mobile rocket battery with crew out in the mountains outside Tehran and suddenly plane lights appear low on the horizon headed towards the airport that might be their mission to protect. No one told them the airport was open. Or they had been warned about any planes from this direction etc....

Just seems like a real bad thing - in war, in peace, any time. Lots of people dead, lots of people on the ground who knew them and are now heartbroken.

[choke]

I initially felt that the assassination of Soleimani was one of the most moronic decisions that a President has made in a long time. I still feel that way, though if in the end it does mean, as many are saying, that ultimately the US military leaves the middle east due to his death then it will be a positive in the long run. I don't feel that we should have any bases in the middle east (or most other places in the world for that matter).

The fact that this event was even an option presented to the President shows very poor judgement by those who wrote and offered the different scenarios of action to the President. At a minimum those people should be fired IMO and that goes all the way up to the Chairman of the JCS/SecDef who were in that chain. They could have removed that option but chose not to and should be held responsible for their actions. I read somewhere that the people in the room were 'aghast' when POTUS chose the Soleimani option....hello, if you don't want to be aghast about a choice then don't include that choice at all.

Many have claimed that Soleimani was a terrorist and responsible for many American deaths in Iraq due to roadside bombs. While the propaganda machine spews that out, the evidence that Iran was behind all of those bombs is less than stellar.

The New Yorker, 2007:

Questions remain, however, about the provenance of weapons in Iraq, especially given the rampant black market in arms. David Kay, a former C.I.A. adviser and the chief weapons inspector in Iraq for the United Nations, told me that his inspection team was astonished, in the aftermath of both Iraq wars, by “the huge amounts of arms” it found circulating among civilians and military personnel throughout the country. He recalled seeing stockpiles of explosively formed penetrators, as well as charges that had been recovered from unexploded American cluster bombs. Arms had also been supplied years ago by the Iranians to their Shiite allies in southern Iraq who had been persecuted by the Baath Party.

Columbia Journalism Revue, 2007:

It’s true that the U.S. military has famously claimed that Iran is supplying Iraqi insurgents with these deadly explosively formed projectile (EFP) bombs, which, in terms of effectiveness, dwarf the usual IEDs that the insurgency has used for years—but this isn’t the whole truth. Despite the Post’s statement of fact, the realities on the ground are much more complicated than the paper is letting on, and to simply repeat the military’s version of events is to do the truth a disservice.

Washington Post, 2006:

ON THE IRAQ-IRAN BORDER -- Since late August, British commandos in the deserts of far southeastern Iraq have been testing one of the most serious charges leveled by the United States against Iran: that Iran is secretly supplying weapons, parts, funding and training for attacks on U.S.-led forces in Iraq.

But Maj. Dominic Roberts of the Queen's Dragoons said: "We have found no credible evidence to suggest there is weapons smuggling across the border."

[jerk]

And now the Iranian authorities have invited Boeing and the FAA to help with the investigation. So much for whatever you were trying to imply.

[j44ke]

So NYTimes is showing a video they say has been confirmed as a missile hitting a plane which given the time stamp would be the Ukrainian flight.

Video Shows Ukrainian Plane Being Hit Over Iran - The New York Times

What was the person filming that allowed them to capture the moment the missile hit the plane? These things are so weird.

[Sbti]

Quite a performance yesterday by #3 . Slurring his words, sniffing, snorting. Out of breath from the long walk from the oval office. Can't hardly stand up, hypersonic missiles, generals behind him look really happy. Clown orange make up. No, nothing wrong here. Goobers, that's your boy?

[sk_tle]

I don't believe the iranian army/gov would have on purpose shot a plane containing mostly iranian people and not a single us citzen. It just doesn't compute.

Only option I can think of if it was a missile would be a giant clusterfuck by the iranian defense mistaking the plane by an enemy. They probably expected retaliation after their own missile attack in Irak.

[ides1056]

Opinion | We Really Must Stop Starting Wars - The New York Times

[Blue Jays]

Iran might consider halting commercial airline travel at the nearby airport if they have personnel nearby with missiles pointed skyward...

[j44ke]

It would be super weird if this was intentional by the Iranians.

There would have to be someone on the plane they really really wanted dead. Maybe the person who alerted the US to the coming rocket attack 3 hours before it happened?

I really think the simple answer is the best right now. They fucked up.

[ides1056]

times 176

[Corso]

Quite a performance yesterday by #3 . Slurring his words, sniffing, snorting. Out of breath from the long walk from the oval office. Can't hardly stand up, hypersonic missiles, generals behind him look really happy. Clown orange make up. No, nothing wrong here. Goobers, that's your boy?

To quote a moderator I respect very much:

You appear to just be trying to provoke.