Texas

[thollandpe]

There will never be a correct way to say it, and that’s part of their strategy.

That's quite the abrogation of duties. There may not necessarily be a best way of saying it, but if the whole point is to effect policy change as opposed to venting, then something bland like "new policing" or "policing in the 21st century" might even work (and draw less scrutiny and criticism on the perfunctory stuff).

I could have saved you a few hundred words. The "their" I was referring to was not Black Lives Matter, but the people who seek to discredit and dismiss the movement. They quibble with delivery, or phrasing, or the tone, but their real problem is with the substance. And their strategy is to keep asking that it be said a certain way, or done a certain way, because they will keep disapproving of how it is said and done.

[echappist]

I could have saved you a few hundred words. The "their" I was referring to was not Black Lives Matter, but the people who seek to discredit and dismiss the movement. They quibble with delivery, or phrasing, or the tone, but their real problem is with the substance. And their strategy is to keep asking that it be said a certain way, or done a certain way, because they will keep disapproving of how it is said and done.

No, I understand your point as intended.

To rephrase my original post, it's an abrogation of duty on the part of those seeking policing reform to throw up their arms and claim that there isn't a better slogan and claim that since no slogan will be deemed good enough anyway, one might as well go with "defund the police".

You are just conjecturing, saying that those opposed to policing reform would quibble with delivery regardless. That may still be true, but the issue is that the present delivery provides a very plausible (albeit cynical) out for those opposed to policing reform not to engage. Those who are opposed might still choose not to engage even with other delivery, but the cover they try to hide behind will look flimsy in comparison. My point is that don't provide that cover.

As for the other hundreds of words, you introduced the off-topic issue of prison abolition into this thread, and I responded by tying it back to the original issue raised. I ask you to have the debating courtesy to address my other point: should convicts such as James Holmes, a mass murderer who killed using assault rifles, be kept in a prison?

[thollandpe]

As for the other hundreds of words, you introduced the off-topic issue of prison abolition into this thread, and I responded by tying it back to the original issue raised. I ask you to have the debating courtesy to address my other point: should convicts such as James Holmes, a mass murderer who killed using assault rifles, be kept in a prison?

That's your second response with a very asymmetrical word count. Why should I accept your challenge to a duel when it's Derringer vs. Colt?

But I'll draw anyway. I won't defend James Holmes going free, that's absurd. Fuck that guy. Will you defend the prison-industrial complex, as it stands in the US, that incarcerates Black people at a rate five times higher than white people? One in 81 Black adults is serving time in a state prison, here in the Land of the Free. A system that can turn kids (over 18 but under 21) into lifers because of a non-violent drug offense. How do you defend a system that incarcerates 1.3 Latinx people for every white person (and in my home state that ratio is over 4:1)?

And while I appreciate your critique of Ruthie Gilmore's work, my intent was not to include prison abolition under the umbrella of police spending, my point was to highlight her discussion with the youth at that conference, even though they initially disagreed. But I do look forward to your refutation of W.E.B. Du Bois' concept of abolition democracy, which informed her work and that of the three other women I referenced.

[echappist]

That's your second response with a very asymmetrical word count. Why should I accept your challenge to a duel when it's Derringer vs. Colt?

But I'll draw anyway. I won't defend James Holmes going free, that's absurd. Fuck that guy. Will you defend the prison-industrial complex, as it stands in the US, that incarcerates Black people at a rate five times higher than white people? One in 81 Black adults is serving time in a state prison, here in the Land of the Free. A system that can turn kids (over 18 but under 21) into lifers because of a non-violent drug offense. How do you defend a system that incarcerates 1.3 Latinx people for every white person (and in my home state that ratio is over 4:1)?

And while I appreciate your critique of Ruthie Gilmore's work, my intent was not to include prison abolition under the umbrella of police spending, my point was to highlight her discussion with the youth at that conference, even though they initially disagreed. But I do look forward to your refutation of W.E.B. Du Bois' concept of abolition democracy, which informed her work and that of the three other women I referenced.

Of course not, and I stated as much in my original post, about how most of us would like to see prison and sentencing reform. I don't doubt that you are much better read on this issue than I am, but even with my relative paucity, I understand how many jurisdiction abuse the incarceration system, not only in the ways you highlighted, but also in ways such as turning jail into a funding source and jailing people over mere peccadilloes and releasing people only after they have paid what's in effect an administrative fine. In my mind, incarceration should be for three types of people: fraudsters, violent criminals, and the truly incorrigible (e.g. I'm thinking along the line of people with 5+ DUIs, or maybe that's just a Wisconsin specialty; though perhaps those should be instead committed to a psych ward).

But when you introduced Prof. Gilmore's ideas (many of which are of significant academic and social value), that introduction was made using an article that specifically highlighted the professor's overarching aim of eliminating prisons altogether, which is where the incongruity comes in. That's the whole reason why there's a side-track discussion about prison abolition. You may view it as a distraction, but it could hardly be a distraction when the theme of the article is on that very topic.

Last but not least, though this exchange may have gotten heated, I fully appreciate you engaging on the substance.

[Chik]

I'm not going to speak to the merits of that study. There's probably some valuable findings that add to the body of academic work on criminal justice. But that sort of headline is the very last thing anyone needs to see at this moment.

I don't understand how progressive activists can be so intelligent in many ways, and so completely clueless about how to build a majority to effect political change. It is exhausting and infuriating to watch. It is becoming difficult to believe they aren't more interested in adulation from their peers than actually persuading outsiders to join their cause.

Yep. Low EQ and lack of empathy with the audience.

[Will Neide]

Last but not least, though this exchange may have gotten heated, I fully appreciate you engaging on the substance.

I feel you all should be commended on your demeanor and depth of knowledge. As a reader, I can clearly see you have differences of opinion, but have kept it professional. I do enjoy the back and forth.

Carry on. :)

[sbornia]

+1 --- it's a pleasure to read what both thollandpe and echappist are sharing here.

I feel you all should be commended on your demeanor and depth of knowledge. As a reader, I can clearly see you have differences of opinion, but have kept it professional. I do enjoy the back and forth.

Carry on. :)

[vertical_doug]

Of course not, and I stated as much in my original post, about how most of us would like to see prison and sentencing reform. I don't doubt that you are much better read on this issue than I am, but even with my relative paucity, I understand how many jurisdiction abuse the incarceration system, not only in the ways you highlighted, but also in ways such as turning jail into a funding source and jailing people over mere peccadilloes and releasing people only after they have paid what's in effect an administrative fine. In my mind, incarceration should be for three types of people: fraudsters, violent criminals, and the truly incorrigible (e.g. I'm thinking along the line of people with 5+ DUIs, or maybe that's just a Wisconsin specialty; though perhaps those should be instead committed to a psych ward).

But when you introduced Prof. Gilmore's ideas (many of which are of significant academic and social value), that introduction was made using an article that specifically highlighted the professor's overarching aim of eliminating prisons altogether, which is where the incongruity comes in. That's the whole reason why there's a side-track discussion about prison abolition. You may view it as a distraction, but it could hardly be a distraction when the theme of the article is on that very topic.

Last but not least, though this exchange may have gotten heated, I fully appreciate you engaging on the substance.

Don't forget the latest political twist by Florida - you will not get your right to vote back unless you can repay your financial debts your have incurred while being incarcerated. That's a twofer

[gregl]

Don't forget the latest political twist by Florida - you will not get your right to vote back unless you can repay your financial debts your have incurred while being incarcerated. That's a twofer

Debtors' prison for voting, what a novel concept. While I cannot influence voting in the sunshine state, I have zero intention of setting foot there and contributing to their economy until Florida voters come to their senses.

Greg

[steve garro]

I went to Big Bend NP once.
I asked everyone there "So this is the best part of Texas?"
"Oh, yes!!" they assured me "The finest part."

"Sounds like I'm good then, thanks!!"

- Garro.

[jclay]

Don't forget the latest political twist by Florida - you will not get your right to vote back unless you can repay your financial debts your have incurred while being incarcerated. That's a twofer

And that after we approved a referendum to restore the franchise to those who had served their time; and that was the intent of the referendum; serving their time or being paroled. Amendment 4 passed by an ~~ 2/3 majority; DeSantis and his Republican dominated legislature, seeing how that would change the political fortunes of the GOP and it's base of "aggrieved", frightened, white social conservatives, overturned the will the voters.

In a further twist....the state has not seen fit to assemble the administrative machinery, or accept their responsibility, to be able to authoritatively tell the relevant individuals how much they owe and to whom! Not that many could pay it but DeSantis & Co put PAID to the possibility that even a small percentage might be able to do so. DeSantis is as vile and evil as Trump. I'd say it's Jim Crow V2 except it's probably more like V200....or 2000 depending on how deeply you want to parse things.

I encourage vacationers to go elsewhere. It's too effing hot and the mozzies can carry you off if the gators, cottonmouths'n rattlers, sharks and armed a55hole drivers don't get you first! Plus it would help reduce the accelerating rate of destruction of our marine and terrestrial wildlife. In my lifetime I've seen the population go from 4M to 21M and it's just demolishing the ecosystem and wildlife.

[Matthew Strongin]

And that after we approved a referendum to restore the franchise to those who had served their time; and that was the intent of the referendum; serving their time or being paroled. Amendment 4 passed by an ~~ 2/3 majority; DeSantis and his Republican dominated legislature, seeing how that would change the political fortunes of the GOP and it's base of "aggrieved", frightened, white social conservatives, overturned the will the voters.

In a further twist....the state has not seen fit to assemble the administrative machinery, or accept their responsibility, to be able to authoritatively tell the relevant individuals how much they owe and to whom! Not that many could pay it but DeSantis & Co put PAID to the possibility that even a small percentage might be able to do so. DeSantis is as vile and evil as Trump. I'd say it's Jim Crow V2 except it's probably more like V200....or 2000 depending on how deeply you want to parse things.

I encourage vacationers to go elsewhere. It's too effing hot and the mozzies can carry you off if the gators, cottonmouths'n rattlers, sharks and armed a55hole drivers don't get you first! Plus it would help reduce the accelerating rate of destruction of our marine and terrestrial wildlife. In my lifetime I've seen the population go from 4M to 21M and it's just demolishing the ecosystem and wildlife.

I may put this post on a tshirt.

[Mark Walberg]

I may put this post on a tshirt.

How about this for a tshirt

WTF.jpeg

[beeatnik]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/15/polit...ion/index.html

[BBB]

Politicians really need to be issued with a shovel when they get elected.

Mindless statements like "This win is for the people who were ignored for so long! This is a message that the establishment will no longer be tolerated! We have officially started the red wave!!" go straight to the bullsh*t heap.

I seem to recall someone's slogan having something to do with draining the swamp and making America great again. And this turned out to be a successful pitch. Presumably the "people who were ignored for so long" weren't in fact being ignored and the establishment was suitably rebuffed when the swamp was drained. In any event, it didn't really work out so well did it? An electoral loss and an attempted coup as I recall.

For a politician to turn around less than 18 months later and talk about people being ignored etc etc seems more than a bit silly.

In any event, none of this is about guns and attempts to halt the slide of regular massacres, which is what the thread is supposed to be about.

[beeatnik]

In South Texas “voters have moved 10, 20, 30, 40 points away from the Democrats and towards the Republicans…[TX-34] is the second most heavily Hispanic congressional district in the U.S.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/RNCResear...89632030040067

Born in Mexico and married to a BP agent. Texas is a weird place.

[COVRTDESIGN]

Can this thread be closed yet???

[j44ke]

I'd like to think so, but the investigation of the tragedy is pretty interesting. Just today in fact new information has come out.

Evidently no key was needed. The doors couldn't be locked from inside the classroom. The police had plenty of weapons and body armor. They could have gone in at any time.

Steven McCraw, director of Department of Public Safety said:

the on-scene commander “decided to put the lives of officers ahead of the lives of children.” Mr. McCraw, speaking forcefully, said the same commander had delayed confronting the gunman because he “waited for a key that was never needed.”

Which is interesting because that's what it felt like to me without knowing any of the actual details.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/21/u...ce-mccraw.html

[beeatnik]

What’s the point of locking a thread no one has posted to in 4 days?

[jimcav]

well, I personally value OT threads because folks here have varied expertise and experience. As the slow trickle of facts continues to accrue and add to the already inexplicable decision-making and levels of incompetence, I hope someone here, perhaps local to the area, can offer something to, not excuse, but perhaps, explain what appears to be, if not abject negligence and dereliction of duty or worse, then at least some bizarre adherence to a poor protocol that should have been abandoned in the face of the reality of shots fired into tiny bodies.

Perhaps the wrongful death cases that this fiasco engenders will be a financial motivation for places to do better. I'd wish that other motivations would suffice, but money seems to louder than morals or common sense.