Virus thread, the political one.

[Matthew Strongin]

Well, easier. The general outcomes people want--security, employment, health--are still common across parties, it seems. The lesson of 2016 is the allure of the outlier for a large segment of voters. We're still looking for someone to unite us behind a plan for this virus, and maybe a lifelong establishment person is disqualified from the start with those people. Maybe the VP pick helps with that.

Maybe. I'm starting to think that the underlying meanings of those outcomes aren't really the same across parties and that's why we're seeing such division. So everyone wants security, employment and health, but those concepts are so broad that the populace will never align on anything other than platitudes. Again, maybe you're right that the VP pick gets people excited about Biden. I just wonder who would have gotten all the people excited...I honestly can't think of anyone. The range from Democratic Socialist to disillusioned non-MAGA Republican with everyone in the "middle" is a massive divide and I just can't think of the candidate that would be an easy choice for Republicans looking for change that doesn't turn off a huge part of the Democratic party. Maybe that's what makes Biden the right choice...nobody seems to actually like him. Like a medicine. Nobody wants to take it, but you know you have to because that's how you kill the disease.

Also, so there's no confusion, I'm not trying to argue with you, Dan. I don't disagree with you as much as I'm trying to process where we are in American politics. Biden's got my vote, but he's not at all who I wanted to be voting for...so I wish I had an "easier" choice as well.

[Matthew Strongin]

Yes, this post here is about ME. Fair warning.

You all know I voted for Trump because he was not Hillary, and I voted Party.

I've defended him here as I feel he's been treated unfairly from before he won. Still do.

I've never been a mega red hat guy - but many still think I am. I'm not. Never was. Just conservative in nature.

I started a thread in the past asking folks to share info on the candidates running against him--it turned into a Trump-bash-a-thon, instead of sharing true opinions on the others. No matter, In the end it's Biden(WTF?). Can't believe he's the option.

Anyhow, with the President recently lashing out agains General Colin Powell, I guess that's my tipping point (combined with everything else). I wish Powell ran. Always liked and respected him.

You may say "THATS your last straw?" Funny thing is, yeah, it is. IN ADDITION TO MANY OTHER THINGS.

I won't be defending the President here anymore. Voting for Biden - man, that won't be easy for me, as Joe "tough guy-I'm a Senator" has never been on my "good" list.

I guess we'll have to see who is VP choice is, as I don't think Joe's health is solid.

I may just write in a fellow Solonista. We'll see.

Anyhow, thank you for letting me vent a bit on this. I won't be joining in on Bashing Trump, enough folks do it already, my addition isn't needed.

Hey Corso, I know this wasn't an easy decision for you to come to and I know it wasn't easy to say it out loud here. Kudos. Everyone has their line and that last step across it isn't always a big one. Perhaps it was an accumulation of acts that revealed/confirmed his character or perhaps the Powell comments just hit close to home. Personally, I'm curious what some of the other things were, but respect if you'd prefer to keep those to yourself. I'm not trying to goad you into Trump bashing...I'm genuinely interested. My wife and I have some current and former Trump supporting family members and it's been interesting to engage with them over the last few years. Especially the ones who have turned away from him and why. Anyway, thanks for being willing to put this out there.

[Matthew Strongin]

I'd vote for Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov before I'd vote for Biden.

I'm sure you're joking. Or is this one of those Trump loves dictators more than fellow Americans type things?

[mzilliox]

I'd vote for Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov before I'd vote for Biden.

how about trump? you'd for for him though?

[bigbill]

At this point, I don't see any way that Trump gets reelected. But still, what happens if Biden falls apart in public during debates or press conferences? I can't see him doing well against Trump on a live stage. Biden gets flustered and Trump is a bully, it is a bad combo. I really wish there were some other candidates running. Before I'd consider Biden, I would have to be sure of the VP candidate because that person will be the president before Biden's term is over. I like Klobuchar.

As far as the virus goes, apparently it is not a thing anymore, the demonstrations and riots dominate the news so we don't get the same level of reporting on the number of infections and deaths. In my county, the combination of increased testing and more people out and about have made the numbers really go up quickly. The number of deaths is still low, but the infection rate is high. The main factor in the deaths is age, almost all the victims were over 65 with many in their 80's. I'm sure there were underlying conditions as well. But...demonstrations.

[mzilliox]

Yes, this post here is about ME. Fair warning.

You all know I voted for Trump because he was not Hillary, and I voted Party.

I've defended him here as I feel he's been treated unfairly from before he won. Still do.

I've never been a mega red hat guy - but many still think I am. I'm not. Never was. Just conservative in nature.

I started a thread in the past asking folks to share info on the candidates running against him--it turned into a Trump-bash-a-thon, instead of sharing true opinions on the others. No matter, In the end it's Biden(WTF?). Can't believe he's the option.

Anyhow, with the President recently lashing out agains General Colin Powell, I guess that's my tipping point (combined with everything else). I wish Powell ran. Always liked and respected him.

You may say "THATS your last straw?" Funny thing is, yeah, it is. IN ADDITION TO MANY OTHER THINGS.

I won't be defending the President here anymore. Voting for Biden - man, that won't be easy for me, as Joe "tough guy-I'm a Senator" has never been on my "good" list.

I guess we'll have to see who is VP choice is, as I don't think Joe's health is solid.

I may just write in a fellow Solonista. We'll see.

Anyhow, thank you for letting me vent a bit on this. I won't be joining in on Bashing Trump, enough folks do it already, my addition isn't needed.

thanks for taking the time to share. im sure it wasnt easy.

[HorsCat]

At this point, I don't see any way that Trump gets reelected. But still, what happens if Biden falls apart in public during debates or press conferences?

I tend to agree but have to temper the hope with (i) the knowledge that there was supposed to be no plausible way for him to win back in '16 and yet he did and (ii) the fact that in 73 years there is nothing that has felled him and yet there are a million things that should have.

Re: debates, my prediction is that Trump is too much of a coward to participate in them. Back in '16 he had no choice but now there is no real upside and only downside. Him saying "debates are rigged and I'm not doing them" will no doubt delight his base and drive the MSM dilly.

[bigbill]

Re: debates, my prediction is that Trump is too much of a coward to participate in them. Back in '16 he had no choice but now there is no real upside and only downside. Him saying "debates are rigged and I'm not doing them" will no doubt delight his base and drive the MSM dilly.

I go the opposite on that subject. If Trump stays behind in the polls, he'll have to come out swinging in debates if he has any chance of winning reelection. Regardless of how the debate goes, Trump will either: a) declare himself the winner, or b)say it was rigged against him and despite that, he still won. Either one works with the base. A guy two houses down the street has one of those Rambo with a Trump head 2020 flags. The bar is pretty low.

[vvv321]

At this point, I don't see any way that Trump gets reelected. But still, what happens if Biden falls apart in public during debates or press conferences? I can't see him doing well against Trump on a live stage. Biden gets flustered and Trump is a bully, it is a bad combo. I really wish there were some other candidates running. Before I'd consider Biden, I would have to be sure of the VP candidate because that person will be the president before Biden's term is over. I like Klobuchar.

There is soooo much false equivalency in this post it would be hilarious if lives were not at risk.

So lets be clear, you are concerned that Biden MIGHT have a medical condition, might, when the other choice is a "stable genius", that has been called a threat to democracy around the world and a threat to the constitution by countless Military generals, and well just anyone and everyone else, including other republicans, the other choice has also called for the police to brutalize the very citizens they are supposed to protect and serve, he has made fun of people with disabilities, he has attacked the foundation of journalism, including Fox News, he has deployed the military against American citizens. He is OBVIOUSLY and proudly racist and sexist, I'll find any number of videos of him saying whatever you wish should you disagree, he's said it all. He's paid off porn stars after he paid for sex to lie about it. OH YES, and he has ties to Russia, and has more than likely colluded with them to attack American citizens. Praised dictators around the world.... I could go on but I think I would puke....


But we need to see who Biden picks as a VP.... because Biden might, again might have a medical condition! What democrat could be worse, I mean seriously which one?


Get out of here.

[HorsCat]

I go the opposite on that subject. If Trump stays behind in the polls, he'll have to come out swinging in debates if he has any chance of winning reelection. Regardless of how the debate goes, Trump will either: a) declare himself the winner, or b)say it was rigged against him and despite that, he still won. Either one works with the base. A guy two houses down the street has one of those Rambo with a Trump head 2020 flags. The bar is pretty low.

Fair points and perhaps. I still think it is all downside for him and he'll choose to go rally instead. His favorite part of presidentin' seems to be his rallies and the oratorical-masturbatory pleasure he seems to derive from them. The guy is all id.

[mzilliox]

There is soooo much false equivalency in this post it would be hilarious if lives were not at risk.

So lets be clear, you are concerned that Biden MIGHT have a medical condition, might, when the other choice is a "stable genius", that has been called a threat to democracy around the world and a threat to the constitution by countless Military generals, and well just anyone and everyone else, including other republicans, the other choice has also called for the police to brutalize the very citizens they are supposed to protect and serve, he has made fun of people with disabilities, he has attacked the foundation of journalism, including Fox News, he has deployed the military against American citizens. He is OBVIOUSLY and proudly racist and sexist, I'll find any number of videos of him saying whatever you wish should you disagree, he's said it all. He's paid off porn stars after he paid for sex to lie about it. OH YES, and he has ties to Russia, and has more than likely colluded with them to attack American citizens. Praised dictators around the world.... I could go on but I think I would puke....


But we need to see who Biden picks as a VP.... because Biden might, again might have a medical condition! What democrat could be worse, I mean seriously which one?


Get out of here.

Completely agree with this assessment, the ability of some folks to offer these false equivalences is what has been the number one tactic to defend Trump. Biden may not make it through his term due to health issues? well, this dude might not make it due to the same, and mental issues, and any number of other issues. every wrong thing he does, his supporters try to say "but so and so is kinda like that too", completely ignoring any kind of nuance or reality. but Hillary, but Obama, but Biden, but Nancy, but but but. like a child. meanwhile not one of these folks is as glaringly incompetent as the man currently in charge, the one they keep trying to offer false equivalences.

its time for republicans to assert what they stand for, and decide if currently democrats better embody those values, devoid of ego and false identities. you are not Republican, I am not either, these are masks we wear when we need to, not our core. if it is your core, if you identify as republican before American or human, perhaps reevaluate. you are probably doing it wrong.

[bigbill]

Fair points and perhaps. I still think it is all downside for him and he'll choose to go rally instead. His favorite part of presidentin' seems to be his rallies and the oratorical-masturbatory pleasure he seems to derive from them. The guy is all id.

I agree.

[monadnocky]

Completely agree with this assessment, the ability of some folks to offer these false equivalences is what has been the number one tactic to defend Trump. Biden may not make it through his term due to health issues? well, this dude might not make it due to the same, and mental issues, and any number of other issues. every wrong thing he does, his supporters try to say "but so and so is kinda like that too", completely ignoring any kind of nuance or reality. but Hillary, but Obama, but Biden, but Nancy, but but but. like a child. meanwhile not one of these folks is as glaringly incompetent as the man currently in charge, the one they keep trying to offer false equivalences.

its time for republicans to assert what they stand for, and decide if currently democrats better embody those values, devoid of ego and false identities. you are not Republican, I am not either, these are masks we wear when we need to, not our core. if it is your core, if you identify as republican before American or human, perhaps reevaluate. you are probably doing it wrong.

At this point if the choice was between Trump and Richard Nixon (dead or resurrected), I would be a full-on, enthsiastic Nixon man through and through.
I'll never understand the process by which one of the current candidates is weighed against the other, outside of blind party loyalty. I don't get it.

[bigbill]

There is soooo much false equivalency in this post it would be hilarious if lives were not at risk.

So lets be clear, you are concerned that Biden MIGHT have a medical condition, might, when the other choice is a "stable genius", that has been called a threat to democracy around the world and a threat to the constitution by countless Military generals, and well just anyone and everyone else, including other republicans, the other choice has also called for the police to brutalize the very citizens they are supposed to protect and serve, he has made fun of people with disabilities, he has attacked the foundation of journalism, including Fox News, he has deployed the military against American citizens. He is OBVIOUSLY and proudly racist and sexist, I'll find any number of videos of him saying whatever you wish should you disagree, he's said it all. He's paid off porn stars after he paid for sex to lie about it. OH YES, and he has ties to Russia, and has more than likely colluded with them to attack American citizens. Praised dictators around the world.... I could go on but I think I would puke....


But we need to see who Biden picks as a VP.... because Biden might, again might have a medical condition! What democrat could be worse, I mean seriously which one?


Get out of here.

Holy shit, you got all that angst out of my short post? Do you think Biden is a good choice? Have you watched his interviews or read the transcripts? Trump is an idiot, but a coherent idiot, for every good thing he does, he says a dozen stupid things, but he has bullied his way through life and likely will take the same approach with Biden.

[gregl]

Holy shit, you got all that angst out of my short post? Do you think Biden is a good choice? Have you watched his interviews or read the transcripts? Trump is an idiot, but a coherent idiot, for every good thing he does, he says a dozen stupid things, but he has bullied his way through life and likely will take the same approach with Biden.

I'm no Biden fan, but here's where we disagree: Trump is an incoherent idiot. He's the poster child for Dunning-Kruger Effect. He's proven incompetent at every aspect of the presidency. He embodies the greatest danger to America since the Civil War. When I met Trump 30 years ago, he was a punchline to me and my co-workers. We laughed out loud at his pompousness. He isn't funny any more. It's time to take the ignorant bully out of the White House.

Greg

[theflashunc]

Holy shit, you got all that angst out of my short post? Do you think Biden is a good choice? Have you watched his interviews or read the transcripts? Trump is an idiot, but a coherent idiot, for every good thing he does, he says a dozen stupid things, but he has bullied his way through life and likely will take the same approach with Biden.

I still think the 2012 Joe Biden is there who beat Paul Ryan like a cheap drum in the VP debate. And Hillary clearly ran circles around Trump in 2016 in each of the debates. And that's before the guy has lost a step the last 4 years miring himself further and further into crazy pants conspiracy land. If anything, his debate style could hurt him for vast swaths of the country -- some of whom voted for him in 2016 -- that just want a calming presence in the White House now.

Trump rode a huge wave of anti-Clinton sentiment in 2016. That's not around this time.

[Saab2000]

I still think the 2012 Joe Biden is there who beat Paul Ryan like a cheap drum in the VP debate. And Hillary clearly ran circles around Trump in 2016 in each of the debates. And that's before the guy has lost a step the last 4 years miring himself further and further into crazy pants conspiracy land. If anything, his debate style could hurt him for vast swaths of the country -- some of whom voted for him in 2016 -- that just want a calming presence in the White House now.

Trump rode a huge wave of anti-Clinton sentiment in 2016. That's not around this time.

There are many who will support him no matter what. He’s almost a messiah-like figure for many Americans, including many senior senators and representatives.

His party has certainly abandoned their talk of constitutional purity and traditional conservatism to appease him.

[Matthew Strongin]

Trump is an idiot, but a coherent idiot

Wait, whut?! I agree with the idiot part, but coherent?

[zachateseverything]

At this point if the choice was between Trump and Richard Nixon (dead or resurrected), I would be a full-on, enthsiastic Nixon man through and through.
I'll never understand the process by which one of the current candidates is weighed against the other, outside of blind party loyalty. I don't get it.

Nixon had issues but he did some good stuff too. He signed environmental protections into law.

Trump is irredeemable.

[defspace]

Nixon had issues but he did some good stuff too. He signed environmental protections into law.

Trump is irredeemable.

If you're talking about Clean Water Act, the senate overruled Nixon's veto.

Edit: ehh, looks like it's a bit more complex than "Nixon vetoed it"