2020 Political Chatter

[guido]

Donald Trump Is Attacking American Democracy at Its Core | The NewYorker

"One thing you cannot accuse Donald Trump of is trying to disguise his nefarious intentions. For months now, legal experts and Democratic campaign officials have warned that he may reject the results of this year’s election and pronounce himself the victor regardless of the vote tally. On Tuesday, Trump virtually confirmed that this is his plan. He also indicated that rushing through the appointment of another conservative to the Supreme Court is a key element of his strategy to stay in the White House.

Before Trump flew to Pittsburgh for a super-spreader campaign rally, a pool reporter asked the President how he reacted to Democratic claims that going ahead with the appointment of a new Justice would tear the country apart. “Oh, I don’t think so,” Trump said. “We need nine Justices. You need that. With the unsolicited millions of ballots that they’re sending, it’s a scam; it’s a hoax. Everybody knows that. And the Democrats know it better than anybody else.”

The ballots Trump was referring to are mail-in forms that many states, including key battlegrounds like Florida, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, are using this year to make it easier and safer for people to vote during the coronavirus pandemic. Surveys indicate that Democratic voters are far more likely to use mail-in ballots than are Republicans. Even though Trump himself uses an absentee ballot—a type of mail-in ballot—to vote in Florida, he has been making unfounded accusations for months about the likelihood of large-scale voter fraud. In July, he told Chris Wallace, of Fox News, “I think mail-in voting is going to rig the election. I really do.”

The President has clearly been laying the groundwork for a legal challenge if the election goes against him, and he’s now confirmed that he expects the Supreme Court to play a key role. In case anybody didn’t get the message from his initial remarks on Tuesday, he repeated it. “So you’re going to need nine Justices up there,” he went on. “I think it’s going to be very important. Because what they’re doing is a hoax, with the ballots. They’re sending out tens of millions of ballots, unsolicited—not where they’re being asked but unsolicited. And that’s a hoax, and you’re going to need to have nine Justices.”

In the Trump lexicon, the word “hoax” has a particular meaning and weight. For years, he applied it to the Mueller investigation. He has also used it to disparage damaging news stories about him, including a report in The Atlantic this month about his disparaging remarks concerning fallen members of the U.S. military. In other words, it’s one of the rhetorical weapons that Trump uses to delegitimize, in the eyes of his supporters, potential threats to him. Now Trump is trying to delegitimize a Presidential election. He is doing it in plain sight, and he is dragging the Supreme Court into the mire with him.

This isn’t just a war of words. As Trump has been escalating his verbal assault, Republican lawyers in a number of states have already sought to challenge, or halt, mail-in voting procedures—thereby establishing a legal basis for subsequent challenges after November 3rd. In a deeply reported piece in The New Yorker this week, my colleague Jeffrey Toobin writes at length about these legal maneuvers. He also highlights the possibility that, come Election Night, Trump could appear to be ahead based on in-person voting, only for the tallies to shift against him as more mail-in ballots are counted in the subsequent days. “If the votes keep shifting, Trump may demand that the Election Night numbers be certified because he doesn’t trust the mail-ins,” Edward B. Foley, a professor at the Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, said.

In another alarming scenario that Toobin raises, some Republican state legislatures, relying on some obscure language in Article II of the Constitution, could even try to nullify the actual votes entirely and appoint slates of Party loyalists as electors to the Electoral College. If you think this sounds too outlandish even for Trump and today’s G.O.P. to consider, think again. Citing Republican sources at the local and national levels, The Atlantic’s Barton Gellman reports that the Trump campaign is making contingency plans along precisely those lines. “With a justification based on claims of rampant fraud, Trump would ask state legislators to set aside the popular vote and exercise their power to choose a slate of electors directly,” Gellman writes."

[j44ke]

Methinks this is an entirely too benevolent view of Trump. Sure, some element of what he is doing is intended to drive 'the left' batty and to focus the media's attention on something not involving hundreds of thousands of dead Americans. But if one thinks that Trump isn't 1,000,000% completely committed to cheating any way he can to stay in power any way he can for however long he can, one hasn't been paying attention.

I'm not saying Denmark isn't rotten. Vigilance in a democracy is mandatory (when is it not?) But getting whacked out about Trump's answers to questions like these is a distraction from what should be the primary focus.

My feeling is that these answers are trying to instigate a rash action that will give them the excuse they want to do something like suspend the election. Convince everyone you won't leave without saying that explicitly and maybe that will provoke an act that will make it possible to respond for the safety and security of the country. That's the historical model for the destruction of a democracy. And it is usually a situation where they don't have the votes to retain power legally.

That AG in Kentucky had to know that his determination was going to increase the likelihood that riots would occur. Pretty convenient given the relative calm of the last week or so, if you are someone running on a platform of law and order, that cities are the devil and inner city denizens are criminals out to destroy the American way of life. Just so happens the AG is McConnell's protegé, so I wonder who he consulted when coming up with his indictment of "wanton endangerment".

And in NYC, there is plenty of evidence the White House is colluding with NYPD through the police union to destabilize the city by work slow downs and on-the-street harassment.

Don't let the f$*kers trick you into rash acts of incendiary nature. There is going to be all sorts of stuff thrown at the opposition from here to November and beyond. Don't give them any excuses.

Win the election.

[ides1056]

fify

Fifty?

No problem, coach.

[Too Tall]

Fifty?

No problem, coach.

F-ixed I-t F-or Y-ou

Acronyms are so 1980s NYT crossword puzzle ;)

[Corso]

Even if it's true. Sincerely, the son of a refuge from Nazi Europe. I wouldn't exist if my grandmother hadn't signed over nearly her entire net worth as "delinquent taxes" to the Nazis so that she could take her family to Switzerland, thence England, and finally the US between 1938 and 1940. I've read the official reparations report on my family's incarceration and the inventorying of their worldly possessions - right down to the jewelry my grandmother was wearing. It's chilling. Not viewing the Trump administration as a dictatorship is the same as those Germans who lived near concentration camps claiming "they had no idea what was occurring". Watch the movie Woman in Gold for a reasonable overview of my family's story. Maria Altmann's family were friends with my family.

Greg

Comparing your familys' situation with our current President simply does not hold water. Sorry.

All the yelling and comparisons to Hitler are simply left leaning propaganda. It's a shame that people can't criticize him (and there is plenty) without going Defcon 5.

By this time, people will either vote for him or not. So vote for him or not.

[ides1056]

I googled it and got nothing.

Went for a ride. Was going up a steep gravel climb and met a woman walking down the hill. She told me I looked "really happy."

I got legs.

Nothing else really matters.

[Clean39T]

This might be the most important article I have read this year - it is sobering beyond belief, and these are times that call for radical sobriety - if you think democracy will continue of its own accord, that the center will hold - read on from The Atlantic: What if Trump Refuses to Concede

Right now, the best we can do is an ad hoc defense of democracy. Begin by rejecting the temptation to think that this election will carry on as elections usually do. Something far out of the norm is likely to happen. Probably more than one thing. Expecting other­wise will dull our reflexes. It will lull us into spurious hope that Trump is tractable to forces that constrain normal incumbents.

If you are a voter, think about voting in person after all. More than half a million postal votes were rejected in this year’s primaries, even without Trump trying to suppress them. If you are at relatively low risk for COVID-19, volunteer to work at the polls. If you know people who are open to reason, spread word that it is normal for the results to keep changing after Election Night. If you manage news coverage, anticipate extra­constitutional measures, and position reporters and crews to respond to them. If you are an election administrator, plan for contingencies you never had to imagine before. If you are a mayor, consider how to deploy your police to ward off interlopers with bad intent. If you are a law-enforcement officer, protect the freedom to vote. If you are a legislator, choose not to participate in chicanery. If you are a judge on the bench in a battleground state, refresh your acquaintance with election case law. If you have a place in the military chain of command, remember your duty to turn aside unlawful orders. If you are a civil servant, know that your country needs you more than ever to do the right thing when you’re asked to do otherwise.

Take agency. An election cannot be stolen unless the American people, at some level, acquiesce.

[Clean39T]

Cheat sheet item one: you won't get very far convincing anyone by starting with "Anyone supporting Trump or supporting the Republican party at all at this point is complicit in the genesis of genocide"

Because it's inaccurate, or not expedient?? I lost the plot in the responses.. How does preaching Eugenics, supporting disenfranchisement, and demonizing refugees (among the many other things this administration has done with the support of the AG and a complicit ICE/DHS) not get read as a running start toward totalitarianism, genocide, and the like?

[ides1056]

Comparing your familys' situation with our current President simply does not hold water. Sorry.

All the yelling and comparisons to Hitler are simply left leaning propaganda. It's a shame that people can't criticize him (and there is plenty) without going Defcon 5.

By this time, people will either vote for him or not. So vote for him or not.

If I were held in a prison cell, separated from my children, wrapped in a space blanket in a cage meant for a dog, sleeping on a cement floor because some draft-dodging con-man slimed his way into the top job and decides to go Defcon 5 on brown people whose country was turned into a shithole by people just like him?

I'd say comparisons with Hitler would be more than apt.

[theflashunc]

I'm not saying Denmark isn't rotten. Vigilance in a democracy is mandatory (when is it not?) But getting whacked out about Trump's answers to questions like these is a distraction from what should be the primary focus.

My feeling is that these answers are trying to instigate a rash action that will give them the excuse they want to do something like suspend the election. Convince everyone you won't leave without saying that explicitly and maybe that will provoke an act that will make it possible to respond for the safety and security of the country. That's the historical model for the destruction of a democracy. And it is usually a situation where they don't have the votes to retain power legally.

That AG in Kentucky had to know that his determination was going to increase the likelihood that riots would occur. Pretty convenient given the relative calm of the last week or so, if you are someone running on a platform of law and order, that cities are the devil and inner city denizens are criminals out to destroy the American way of life. Just so happens the AG is McConnell's protegé, so I wonder who he consulted when coming up with his indictment of "wanton endangerment".

And in NYC, there is plenty of evidence the White House is colluding with NYPD through the police union to destabilize the city by work slow downs and on-the-street harassment.

Don't let the f$*kers trick you into rash acts of incendiary nature. There is going to be all sorts of stuff thrown at the opposition from here to November and beyond. Don't give them any excuses.

Win the election.

Easier said than done when it's going to be ratfucked to high heaven. This is going to end up in the courts no matter how things look the night of November 3rd. And given the blue shift effect of mail-in ballots, Trump is going to want to call this election over as early as possible.

Win the election really means win the upcoming legal battle, and with a stacked Supreme Court, there's no guarantee that'll happen.

[slwrnu]

in the UK, and a lot of Europe, we have a separation of powers model, in which the state is split into three functions. The idea being that each of the three functions can keep an eye on the others. You guys do not have that. Mixing up the law, money and politics is tricky, although I have a soft spot for those who say the best form of government is a benign dictatorship. Respectfully submitted from abroad.

[ColonelJLloyd]

in the UK, and a lot of Europe, we have a separation of powers model, in which the state is split into three functions. The idea being that each of the three functions can keep an eye on the others. You guys do not have that.

Interesting. We'll look into that and get back to you. Thanks.

[Corso]

If I were held in a prison cell, separated from my children, wrapped in a space blanket in a cage meant for a dog, sleeping on a cement floor because some draft-dodging con-man slimed his way into the top job and decides to go Defcon 5 on brown people whose country was turned into a shithole by people just like him?

I'd say comparisons with Hitler would be more than apt.

Then compare President Obama to Hitler too, as the same treatment happened under him. But you most likely will refuse to believe that.

Even so, if you feel the Hitler comparison is not an over-reach, you may need to brush up on history.

[Corso]

That AG in Kentucky had to know that his determination was going to increase the likelihood that riots would occur. Pretty convenient given the relative calm of the last week or so, if you are someone running on a platform of law and order, that cities are the devil and inner city denizens are criminals out to destroy the American way of life.

IMO: One side is using the rioters to defend the "law and order" position. The other side is using the rioters to show "this is the mayhem you get under Trump, and it's not stopping until he's gone".

Both sides are using the big city violence and the rioters. But do they know they are being used? Sadly, no.

[theflashunc]

Then compare President Obama to Hitler too, as the same treatment happened under him. But you most likely will refuse to believe that.

Even so, if you feel the Hitler comparison is not an over-reach, you may need to brush up on history.

What's happening now at the border is orders of magnitude beyond what was going on in the Obama administration. It's new, they're concentration camps, and any pretending otherwise is a gross denial of the facts on the ground. Is it the Holocaust? No. But is it inexcusable barbarism perpetuated against the most vulnerable people showing up at our borders? Yes. We've even got a doctor down there doing mass hysterectomies on the government's dime, concerning enough that we've got people blowing the whistle on it now.

Kick rocks on that "Obama did it too" nonsense.

[Clean39T]

IMO: One side is using the rioters to defend the "law and order" position. The other side is using the rioters to show "this is the mayhem you get under Trump, and it's not stopping until he's gone".

Both sides are using the big city violence and the rioters. But do they know they are being used? Sadly, no.

The difference is that one side is fighting for justice and progress and human decency, the other is manipulating the masses at every turn in the quest for a further entrenchment of white-supremacy and bigotry as a tool to maintain the political power necessary to bleed the country dry for his personal gain and for the grifters along for the ride.

[vertical_doug]

Then compare President Obama to Hitler too, as the same treatment happened under him. But you most likely will refuse to believe that.

Even so, if you feel the Hitler comparison is not an over-reach, you may need to brush up on history.

I can agree that Hitler comparison is over reach, but I do think claiming Trump is a wanna-be dictator is a fair accusation. If you look at how he screams sedition for those protestors that disagree with him on the political left. You are no longer a protestor, but an enemy of the state. He seems to confuse officials swearing an oath to the 'Office of the President' and 'The Constitution' as a oath to him. He repeatedly tries to undermine confidence in our democratic process and undermine the integrity of our election by sowing confusing. He seems to relish violence of US Citizens against other US citizens (as long as the ones winning are 'his supporters') . There is much much more I could right here. All of these are long held methods of autocrats to take control of a democracy.

He can win the election outright, although I think the odds are against him. The question is how far will he go to try to invalidate the election, question the election, ask others to violate their oaths because only he can save the union... I may be wearing a tinfoil hat, but he seems more and more like a wanna-be dictator everyday. I watch the same progression with Erdogan and Orban.

Doug

[Corso]

The difference is that one side is fighting for justice and progress and human decency, the other is manipulating...

How about fighting for justice and human decency while being manipulated for political gain... like I stated, they don't even recognize it.

[ides1056]

Then compare President Obama to Hitler too, as the same treatment happened under him. But you most likely will refuse to believe that.

Even so, if you feel the Hitler comparison is not an over-reach, you may need to brush up on history.

There has never been a president who took pleasure in inflicting pain on others.

I don't need a history lesson from you, thanks.

[j44ke]

IMO: One side is using the rioters to defend the "law and order" position. The other side is using the rioters to show "this is the mayhem you get under Trump, and it's not stopping until he's gone".

Both sides are using the big city violence and the rioters. But do they know they are being used? Sadly, no.

Yes, the losers in this will always be the kids in the streets.