Virus thread, the political one.

[gregl]

I think the whole thing about a "purity" test is valid if you use it as a reason to not vote for one of the (main) parties.
But as a reason to not vote for either of the (main) parties, eh, not so much.

By not voting, you are implicitly supporting the likely worse candidate (assuming two or three candidates for the office). Only by voting for the most qualified candidate can you hope to improve governance going forward.

Greg

[echappist]

By not voting, you are implicitly supporting the likely worse candidate (assuming two or three candidates for the office). Only by voting for the most qualified candidate can you hope to improve governance going forward.

Greg

I sometimes wonder if the Founders got it wrong by being overly reactionary toward the parliamentary system. Basically, in opposing most things related to British polity (although for whatever reason, they didn't despise it enough to adopt a Civil Law judicial system), they tossed out the baby with the bathwater.

My wife grew up in Canada and would vote for the New Democrat Party (NDP), which is considered to be on the left of Trudeau's Liberal Party. It has held provincial premierships before, but it has often been a minor party at the federal level. However, in a parliamentary system, third (and fourth) parties often do play an important role in governance when no one party has a majority. Most of the social welfare programs which we consider to be part-and-parcel of modern day Canada were actually passed by a plurality Liberal Party in alliance with the NDP, the implication being that in return for confidence, the Liberal Party enacted causes championed by the NDP. Fancy that, cross-party political cooperation.

It's not perfect, as for any particular MP election, it's still first-pass-the-post (whereas ranked choice would be preferable), but nonetheless, still better than the system foisted upon us.

As an aside, two interesting tidbits about the NDP and its founder. The greatest Canadian, as determined by a poll conducted by the CBC is a politician; however this politician is not a member of either the Liberals or the Tories. Rather, it's Tommy Douglas, who founded the NDP and was instrumental in implementing the aforementioned social welfare program (based on similar programs Douglas implemented as the premier of Saskatchewan). Also, most of us here probably have heard of one of the grandchildren of Douglas: Kiefer Sutherland, aka Jack Bauer. The fictional hero of American military interventionism turns out to be played someone who shares the political view of his grandfather.

[Mark Kelly]

It's not perfect, as for any particular MP election, it's still first-pass-the-post (whereas ranked choice would be preferable)

Careful what you wish for. Australia does have ranked choice AKA preference voting. In the reps it mostly works OK but in the senate where each state elects 6* at each election there are people who specialise in manipulating preferences, know aspreference whispering, and the results can be weird: in a recent election the representative of the Motoring Enthusiast Party got a seat despite having won 0.5% of first preferences.


* In the usual half senate election, if a double dissolution is called all twelve seats per state are up. There are so many seats per state because there are only six states (the territories only get two each).

[ides1056]

Voting is not optional, I think. You must choose. As for the difference, it's something like what Oscar Wilde said, that we are all in the gutter, but some are looking at the stars.

I thought more about Biden today: he's got a good heart, and after 47 years in Washington is instinctively compassionate. He's humble, willing to own up to having made mistakes and prepared to learn from them.

We could do worse.

[Too Tall]

Voting is not optional, I think. You must choose. As for the difference, it's something like what Oscar Wilde said, that we are all in the gutter, but some are looking at the stars.

I thought more about Biden today: he's got a good heart, and after 47 years in Washington is instinctively compassionate. He's humble, willing to own up to having made mistakes and prepared to learn from them.

We could do worse.

We could do worse.

[72gmc]

Fancy that, cross-party political cooperation.

As an idealist who always has more to learn, these are two good things I think I know about the parliamentary system: 1) it allows third- and fourth-rated parties a formal channel for influence, as opposed to factions working behind the scenes in a two-party system, and 2) it allows the people to force compromise on a leader to the point where a coalition platform is essential, rather than requiring a rip and replace of leaders and platforms.

[Corso]

I thought more about Biden today: he's got a good heart, and after 47 years in Washington is instinctively compassionate. He's humble, willing to own up to having made mistakes and prepared to learn from them.

We could do worse.

Well, that's one way to look at Biden.
Here's another: After 47 years, this lifelong politician has been a big alligator living off the swamp. He's always been less than humble, more like a tough-guy bully, particularly in senate hearings. He's made plenty of "mistakes", and flip flops often - as a career politician has learned to do in order to survive. Learn from them? He's lied through his entire career, and continues to do so now. He was for school integration in the south, but NOT the north? Ever hear hm speak in his "Indian" accent? - yeah, big heart indeed. His vice presidency to balance the ticket was a pure gift. Obama did not support his latest (yeah, others failed big time) presidential run from day one, and only recently has put in a bare minimum effort to help his VP. Joe has put his foot in his mouth many, many times, but it's simply dismissed as "Joe being Joe". 47 years to learn from his mistakes? As Joe would say: C'MON MAN!

This thread has completely ignored the latest news about Hunter peddling his dad's influence. I'm a bit amazed that this is ignored. But then again, not really.

Yes, we possibly could do worse, but I'm not going to re-write Bidens' history in order to justify voting for him.

If I vote for him, I'll do so knowing who he's really is and has been, not some rose colored version of a career politician, which in the past, everyone here seemed to agree was a "bad" thing.

[theflashunc]

Well, that's one way to look at Biden.
Here's another: After 47 years, this lifelong politician has been a big alligator living off the swamp. He's always been less than humble, more like a tough-guy bully, particularly in senate hearings. He's made plenty of "mistakes", and flip flops often - as a career politician has learned to do in order to survive. Learn from them? He's lied through his entire career, and continues to do so now. He was for school integration in the south, but NOT the north? Ever hear hm speak in his "Indian" accent? - yeah, big heart indeed. His vice presidency to balance the ticket was a pure gift. Obama did not support his latest (yeah, others failed big time) presidential run from day one, and only recently has put in a bare minimum effort to help his VP. Joe has put his foot in his mouth many, many times, but it's simply dismissed as "Joe being Joe". 47 years to learn from his mistakes? As Joe would say: C'MON MAN!

This thread has completely ignored the latest news about Hunter peddling his dad's influence. I'm a bit amazed that this is ignored. But then again, not really.

Yes, we possibly could do worse, but I'm not going to re-write Bidens' history in order to justify voting for him.

If I vote for him, I'll do so knowing who he's really is and has been, not some rose colored version of a career politician, which in the past, everyone here seemed to agree was a "bad" thing.

Ah yes, such a deep concern that it's being dismissed by that liberal bastion, the news pages of the Wall Street Journal.

The venture—set up in 2017 after Mr. Biden left the vice presidency and before his presidential campaign—never received proposed funds from the Chinese company or completed any deals, according to people familiar with the matter. Corporate records reviewed by The Wall Street Journal show no role for Joe Biden.

Later in this story from this noted progressive rag:

Text messages and emails related to the venture that were provided to the Journal by Mr. Bobulinski, mainly from the spring and summer of 2017, don’t show either Hunter Biden or James Biden discussing a role for Joe Biden in the venture.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hunter-...re-11603421247

Shame, but the disinformation campaign ain't working quite so well this go-round. And career politicians aren't inherently bad things, if they serve the public well and generally try to do well by their constituents.

[echappist]

Well, that's one way to look at Biden.
Here's another: After 47 years, this lifelong politician has been a big alligator living off the swamp. He's always been less than humble, more like a tough-guy bully, particularly in senate hearings. He's made plenty of "mistakes", and flip flops often - as a career politician has learned to do in order to survive. Learn from them? He's lied through his entire career, and continues to do so now. He was for school integration in the south, but NOT the north? Ever hear hm speak in his "Indian" accent? - yeah, big heart indeed. His vice presidency to balance the ticket was a pure gift. Obama did not support his latest (yeah, others failed big time) presidential run from day one, and only recently has put in a bare minimum effort to help his VP. Joe has put his foot in his mouth many, many times, but it's simply dismissed as "Joe being Joe". 47 years to learn from his mistakes? As Joe would say: C'MON MAN!

This thread has completely ignored the latest news about Hunter peddling his dad's influence. I'm a bit amazed that this is ignored. But then again, not really.

Yes, we possibly could do worse, but I'm not going to re-write Bidens' history in order to justify voting for him.

If I vote for him, I'll do so knowing who he's really is and has been, not some rose colored version of a career politician, which in the past, everyone here seemed to agree was a "bad" thing.

Even if there were any substance to the allegation (which there isn't), that (as in, peddling of influence of parent in a position of power) is the issue to disqualify Biden?

Lest we forget, the counterpart here are the Trump sons and Jarvanka. Again, the following from that bastion of liberal media, the WSJ.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-...cts-1478083150

https://www.wsj.com/graphics/donald-...s-of-interest/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-...ems-1484303452

[Corso]

You may find this an interesting read:

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/med...port_FINAL.pdf

Feel free to skip to the reports' conclusion.

If you want to believe the WSJ (who endorsed Biden) article, fine. I simply have doubts that the WSJ is getting truthful information from a Chinese company.

Even so, if you ignore the all the Hunter situations, Joe still has decades of his own "record". Lessor of 2 evils? Perhaps. But he's still no saint. And judging by his current appearances, has lost his fastball.

[jimcav]

Too late for me, as I already cast my 1st presidential vote since Perot in '92. My boys will be able to vote in the 2024 election, and I'm now a civilian, so I exercised my civic duty even though the outcome is forgone in CA. But I'm generally curious, apart from the meaningless use of 'swamp', by what senatorial measure (simply years?, income? bills sponsored?) is a senator a "big alligator".

I have seen the Hunter stuff on Fox and CNBC. I could care less what his son did, unless he is in actually in gov't position. Maybe Hunter will be tasked to finish all Jarrod's good works. I've seen no real news, just BS allegation/spin without facts.

Both parties have long been beholden to monied interests, slightly different interests D vs R, but I've had family and friends literally saved by programs championed by democrats. I got good military pay raises from both. I was part of a process sending men and women younger than myself into harms way--did my best to ensure they were physically qualified. My only assignment with NSW coincided with the highest casualty numbers for OEF/OIF/OND. Like many things there is a lag to policy choices, to include CiC military choices. I got to see that over a 28 year career in uniform (24 that count--thanks to a GOP CiC eliminating the time in service credit for the service academies). I've seen it play out in the economy, tiresome of folks getting blame or taking credit for things that cycle in years.

But some things are acute. 9/11 needed a response, but then it was used to advance other goals. PR may be a state before all troops are out of Iraq. The Financial Crisis needed a response. I'm not a fan of big business bailout, but at least my underwater house in 2008 recovered by 2011 to let me escape losing some of what I put into it, and not having to PAY to sell...

I'm white and already was WFH, and, knock on wood, foresee stable employment for myself for 5+ years. If I keep myself in check with spending, I might be able to truly retire then. I'll likely be fine regardless of 2020 election outcome. But I chose to serve my country because I love it. My grandmother, with my infant mother, came over in 1939, fleeing the impact of Hitler (not Jewish, but they fought briefly for their land/sovereignty, and lost--my grandfather was drafted, but his brother took his place as he was single sans children--he died, so they could flee). What America meant for my mother is what I idealized and wanted to preserve. I'm watching it become (hoping not) something else.

The pandemic is a disgusting mess here, and it shouldn't be. One day the the views espoused and decisions made (by the those that have made this pandemic so much worse in the USA than it would have been) will look just as good as the mobs screaming and spitting in Little Rock 1957--they will be reviled. I'm not trying to equate them in any other way, other than both are examples of the monstrous wrongs inflicted by people with awful ideas not based in truth.



,

Well, that's one way to look at Biden.
Here's another: After 47 years, this lifelong politician has been a big alligator living off the swamp. He's always been less than humble, more like a tough-guy bully, particularly in senate hearings. He's made plenty of "mistakes", and flip flops often - as a career politician has learned to do in order to survive. Learn from them? He's lied through his entire career, and continues to do so now. He was for school integration in the south, but NOT the north? Ever hear hm speak in his "Indian" accent? - yeah, big heart indeed. His vice presidency to balance the ticket was a pure gift. Obama did not support his latest (yeah, others failed big time) presidential run from day one, and only recently has put in a bare minimum effort to help his VP. Joe has put his foot in his mouth many, many times, but it's simply dismissed as "Joe being Joe". 47 years to learn from his mistakes? As Joe would say: C'MON MAN!

This thread has completely ignored the latest news about Hunter peddling his dad's influence. I'm a bit amazed that this is ignored. But then again, not really.

Yes, we possibly could do worse, but I'm not going to re-write Bidens' history in order to justify voting for him.

If I vote for him, I'll do so knowing who he's really is and has been, not some rose colored version of a career politician, which in the past, everyone here seemed to agree was a "bad" thing.

[theflashunc]

You may find this an interesting read:

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/med...port_FINAL.pdf

Feel free to skip to the reports' conclusion.

If you want to believe the WSJ (who endorsed Biden) article, fine. I simply have doubts that the WSJ is getting truthful information from a Chinese company.

Even so, if you ignore the all the Hunter situations, Joe still has decades of his own "record". Lessor of 2 evils? Perhaps. But he's still no saint. And judging by his current appearances, has lost his fastball.

Even if we assume Joe has lost it, we're also somehow to ignore the guy he's running against hasn't?

Windmills cause cancer!

[theflashunc]

You may find this an interesting read:

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/med...port_FINAL.pdf

Feel free to skip to the reports' conclusion.

If you want to believe the WSJ (who endorsed Biden) article, fine. I simply have doubts that the WSJ is getting truthful information from a Chinese company.

Even so, if you ignore the all the Hunter situations, Joe still has decades of his own "record". Lessor of 2 evils? Perhaps. But he's still no saint. And judging by his current appearances, has lost his fastball.

The Ron Johnson report? Hah. The one fueled in part by information obtained by someone US intelligence has classified as a Russian agent? The same Ron Johnson who spent a recent July 4 in Moscow?

Nah, I'm don't need to waste my time reading what Senator Johnson is laundering. He's gonna have an interesting reelection come 2022.

[Too Tall]

Thanks for the civility.

We voted.

[Tom]

Early voting in NY state is interesting. Schenectady County has four polling places open for early in-person voting. Saturday, the first day, people waited an hour and a half to vote. Long lines but they moved. Yesterday my mother-in-law and my brother-in-law went to vote at 1pm and waited an hour. Again, long lines and they moved along well but a Monday? Interesting.

Don't know what it means, if it really makes any difference, but I suspect turnout at least around here is going to be better than past elections.

I get annoyed when maybe 40% of the eligible people vote. A lot of people have given up a lot of themselves so we can do this, you have to honor that. Just my opinion.

[ides1056]

"This thread has completely ignored the latest news about Hunter peddling his dad's influence. I'm a bit amazed that this is ignored. But then again, not really."

So much whining.

Your guy has made his case.

We'll see what happens.

[Saab2000]

Early voting in NY state is interesting. Schenectady County has four polling places open for early in-person voting. Saturday, the first day, people waited an hour and a half to vote. Long lines but they moved. Yesterday my mother-in-law and my brother-in-law went to vote at 1pm and waited an hour. Again, long lines and they moved along well but a Monday? Interesting.

Don't know what it means, if it really makes any difference, but I suspect turnout at least around here is going to be better than past elections.

I get annoyed when maybe 40% of the eligible people vote. A lot of people have given up a lot of themselves so we can do this, you have to honor that. Just my opinion.

I've read that voter turnout may be an all-time high this year. I have already placed my vote. It would be surprising if people are undecided. But apparently there are still undecided voters.

A friend of mine will likely vote for the incumbent even though she agrees with many of the ideas of the Democrats. She's a gun enthusiast who has been convinced that people are coming for her guns, something that didn't happen during eight years of Obama. Not trying to start that fight but I think she is misinformed. We all need to educate ourselves on good information rather than falling prey to the misinformation and fear both parties trade in.

Here in Illinois we have an interesting ballot initiative which, if passed, will change the tax structure to a more progressive tax structure. These initiatives are another reason to vote - there's more at stake than just the White House. The GOP figured this out a long time ago and the lower local and county offices are where they get tomorrow's congressional members and SCOTUS justices. They run this political machine very effectively it seems. I say this even though I personally disagree with today's GOP on virtually everything. If the Democrats wish to be a power they need to be far more active at a grass roots level and try harder to increase voter turnout. The GOP is very effective at this.

Just because your state may already be predestined to lean for one presidential candidate or another, local, county and state elections are also critically important to the future of the country and aren't necessarily predestined because they're not decided by the now-antiquated electoral college system. Vote wisely.

[gregl]

Early voting in NY state is interesting. Schenectady County has four polling places open for early in-person voting. Saturday, the first day, people waited an hour and a half to vote. Long lines but they moved. Yesterday my mother-in-law and my brother-in-law went to vote at 1pm and waited an hour. Again, long lines and they moved along well but a Monday? Interesting.

Don't know what it means, if it really makes any difference, but I suspect turnout at least around here is going to be better than past elections.

I get annoyed when maybe 40% of the eligible people vote. A lot of people have given up a lot of themselves so we can do this, you have to honor that. Just my opinion.

Similar story here in central NY. Even though NY is a very "blue" state with the presidential race a foregone conclusion (at the state level), people definitely want to make their voices heard. Eighteen percent of Onondaga County residents had placed their votes by this morning, a full week out from the election. Several of the six early voting locations had long lines. I've seen texts and social media posts giving real-time info on voting line waits. Sadly, the shortest waits were in economically disadvantaged, urban locations. I voted yesterday. The efficiency and positive attitudes of the poll workers were inspiring. They are far better examples of patriotism than the various and sundry right wing militia groups.

Greg

[gregl]

A friend of mine will likely vote for the incumbent even though she agrees with many of the ideas of the Democrats. She's a gun enthusiast who has been convinced that people are coming for her guns, something that didn't happen during eight years of Obama. Not trying to start that fight but I think she is misinformed. We all need to educate ourselves on good information rather than falling prey to the misinformation and fear both parties trade in.

Single-issue voters, the building blocks of the Republican "coalition." I have several friends and family members who fall into this category. I have tried to reason calmly and logically with them, to little avail. With some of those who were vehement in their support of Trump, I decided that they really weren't persons who I want to be friends (or more sadly, family) with any longer. If you support Trump and his ilk for your "one issue," you are implicitly supporting all his policies. To me, that makes you no better than those who lived near Nazi concentration camps and later claimed that they had no idea what was going on there. The future of American democracy is at stake here. Vote wisely.

Greg

[zachateseverything]

But he's still no saint. And judging by his current appearances, has lost his fastball.

but how fast is the pitching in Thighland?