The world is officially upside down.

[Corso]

You, of course, realize you just used the exact same deflection strategy twice in a row? - setting up the straw dog of GWB-bashing to, yet again, avoid even mentioning Stephen Bannon.

I'm glad to see that we can agree that the vast majority of the recent protests have been non-violent. But...

• You just equated a protest spilling out into the street with illegal immigration?
• And condemned these peaceful mass protests as a threat to public safety and local budgets because so many people showed up that they stepped off sidewalks?
• And claimed that George Soros is "paying for" these protests because they've been organized by MoveOn, a group he supports? That one sounds like something straight out of the Alt Right playbook to me. Why not just say the protest are being funded by a Gobal Cabal of International Bankers, and get those antisemetic dog whistles screeching?

I am sure that there are people out there protesting this election result as unfair. I have seen people say, without proof, that tens of thousands of voters were unable to vote in PA. Unless I see some significant evidence, that sounds to me like a wild conspiracy theory.

But I am betting that just as many are out there as a statement of solidarity, and expression of anguish, that this horrible man was elected. Calling people "childish" for exercising their right to assemble, speak, and protest is just wrong.

Bannon is not a good choice. I expect this to be changed.

“stepping into the street”…talk about spin! I just about blew coffee through my nose on that one! Not violent? Talk to Portland.

And yes, breaking the law is breaking the law, is it not? Point: people break laws all the time in this country. When do we uphold them?

Elizabeth Warren stated if Bannon isn’t removed, she’ll never vote for anything the President puts forward. Does this sound mature to you? I call it childish.

I’m sorry, but I can’t romanticize these protest.

[spopepro]

Consider me checked.

The comparison I was trying to make was one of maturity level between a college-age student crying about the election outcome and skipping classes, and a college-age soldier who are making life changing sacrifices.

I have nothing but RESPECT for anyone and everyone who serves in the armed forces.

I did not say vets were either for or against Trump, and did not mean to politicize or patronize veterans. I would never patronize veterans.
In fact, I’ve done some work for the New England Center for homeless Veterans.

I apologize if that’s how it was interpreted, it’s truly not how I meant it.

Genuinely appreciated.

Something vets are weary of is being used for a political argument, and discarded. A few months ago VA dysfunction was all the rage, but people seemed to be most interested in assigning blame (and through partisanship) and in the end something just north of absolutely nothing was done. Here in CA there was mass corruption in National Guard leadership (successfully prosecuted) and in the mess a whole bunch of enlisted were overpaid. The pentagon says they have to get that money back, and even though they don't want to, they are bound by law. Bipartisan leadership says they want to fix it. Nothing yet has been done. Frankly, I expect everyone to forget about it once it's off the front pages. They always do.

Sorry. This is getting off topic even for an OT thread.

[bcm119]

Bannon is not a good choice. I expect this to be changed.

“stepping into the street”…talk about spin! I just about blew coffee through my nose on that one! Not violent? Talk to Portland.

And yes, breaking the law is breaking the law, is it not? Point: people break laws all the time in this country. When do we uphold them?

Elizabeth Warren stated if Bannon isn’t removed, she’ll never vote for anything the President puts forward. Does this sound mature to you? I call it childish.

I’m sorry, but I can’t romanticize these protest6.

It's only childish if her reasons for rejecting Bannon are trivial. If he presents a threat to the principles the nation was founded upon, which it appears he does, she is correct to use any means necessary to remove him, childish as they may seem. Bannon is a very dangerous man to have the presidents ear.

[Corso]

Genuinely appreciated.

Something vets are weary of is being used for a political argument, and discarded. A few months ago VA dysfunction was all the rage, but people seemed to be most interested in assigning blame (and through partisanship) and in the end something just north of absolutely nothing was done. Here in CA there was mass corruption in National Guard leadership (successfully prosecuted) and in the mess a whole bunch of enlisted were overpaid. The pentagon says they have to get that money back, and even though they don't want to, they are bound by law. Bipartisan leadership says they want to fix it. Nothing yet has been done. Frankly, I expect everyone to forget about it once it's off the front pages. They always do.

Sorry. This is getting off topic even for an OT thread.

No apologies needed. Let’s hope the new administration keeps (at least) promises it has made about the Veterans situation.

[spopepro]

And yes, breaking the law is breaking the law, is it not? Point: people break laws all the time in this country. When do we uphold them?

Civil disobedience requires disobedience. Sure, arrest people. Fill the jails with them until they are locking people up to posts under a tent. Turn the fire hoses on the citizenship. Load the cannons with grapeshot.

There's a reason the people in power don't do so: it would hurt their cause. Protest without consequence is great business for the status quo. Little c conservatives get to rally around the cause of "those lawless scoundrels" and well do'er progressives get their participation trophy without having to actually risk anything. And there's no force applied to make change.

You know why nothing changes with government surveillance of US nationals? Because Snowden fucking ran and wrecked his credibility. If the government actually had to prosecute one of our own for telling the truth about unlawful behavior I'm certain things would have changed. At least a little bit.

So, if you want it bad enough, show up in numbers. Break laws, but cause no harm. Leave the cellphone at home, carry only your ID and pocket change for a phone call. Tell trusted people where you are going and have someone who will make bail. I am prepared. Are you? (ahem... collective "you" in this case)

[72gmc]

No apologies needed. Let’s hope the new administration keeps (at least) promises it has made about the Veterans situation.

Yes please.

[spopepro]

No apologies needed. Let’s hope the new administration keeps (at least) promises it has made about the Veterans situation.

Agreed, but... here's the plan:

1. Appoint a VA Secretary whose sole purpose will be to serve veterans. Under a Trump Administration, the needs of D.C. bureaucrats will no longer be placed above those of our veterans.

2. Use the powers of the presidency to remove and discipline the federal employees and managers who have violated the public's trust and failed to carry out the duties on behalf of our veterans.

3. Ask that Congress pass legislation that empowers the Secretary of the VA to discipline or terminate any employee who has jeopardized the health, safety or well-being of a veteran.

4. Create a commission to investigate all the fraud, cover-ups, and wrong-doing that has taken place in the VA, and present these findings to Congress to spur legislative reform.

5. Protect and promote honest employees at the VA who highlight wrongdoing, and guarantee their jobs will be protected.

6. Create a private White House hotline, which will be active 24 hours a day answered by a real person. It will be devoted to answering veteran's complaints of wrongdoing at the VA and ensure no complaints fall through the cracks.

7. Stop giving bonuses to any VA employees who are wasting money, and start rewarding employees who seek to improve the VA's service, cut waste, and save lives.

8. Reform the visa system to ensure veterans are at the front of the line for health services, not the back.

9. Increase the number of mental health care professionals, and allow veteran's to be able to seek mental health care outside of the VA.

10. Ensure every veteran has the choice to seek care at the VA or at a private service provider of their own choice. Under a Trump Administration, no veteran will die waiting for service.

Which other than #9 sounds like a whole lot of firing people and not adding services. Something that I know from working in the public sector that Trump and his team might not is that hiring competent leadership at public sector salaries with the increased job scrutiny is really, really hard. I mean, I could name 10 teachers in my school district who I don't want teaching, but considering we already have 4 classrooms with substitutes because we couldn't even find anyone qualified to interview for open positions... a bad teacher is better than no teacher. We even have 3 H1-B teachers this year and have started to recruit overseas.

But yes, I'm not going to say it can't work before anyone tries. I just feel like I've seen this movie before.

[UnfilteredDregs]

The danger I see is not a steady progression of authoritarianism through the normal order, but the invocation of a state of emergency to grab extraordinary powers once the normal order is discredited and delegitimated.

How Rubicon.

[ericpmoss]

Trump is now pushing for his son-in-law to get top-secret clearance. He is not going to divest, but instead let his kids run the businesses. With top-secret clearance for the husband of one of them. He promised to drain the swamp, but his team is being built around Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase insiders. He's bringing in the architect of W's black-site torture centers, Jose Rodriguez. His pick for Secretary of Energy is an oil billionaire. I promise you he is setting up the biggest self-dealing scam ever, and all that talk about the average guy is a joke.

[HorsCat]

/\/\ Yep. Trump getting himself elected is probably the greatest con job in history. Hands down, no question about it. And the joke is on us.

[jclay]

Honest, straight-forward question - how did this come to pass?

Well, in recent history, I guess the frightening "left" movements that were women's right to vote, the right to unionize, the civil rights movement, the notion that a woman's body is her own, the idea that the elderly should not live in poverty, the notion that the poor should not go without medical care, turned out to be seen as good things that made us a better, stronger, more humane nation and we decided that maybe it made sense to teach those ideas and see if we could do even better.

If you want to try on a "right", authoritarian government suffering from none of the awful baggage of a "left", aka progressive government, I think there are quite a few to choose from. To everybody who carps about "progressives" or what is called "left" in the USA (or, heavens, even Europe!), pick a country with an ineffective government, lax business and other regulations, much inequality and a huge disparity in wealth distribution....take it for a spin for a year or two and get back to us.

At what point in time would you like to have frozen "progress"? Before the reformation? When the world was flat? During slavery? When we thought it OK to commit genocide against Native Americans? Now? Personally, Ida frozen bicycle technology progress right before indexed shifting, but human progress....I'm pretty happy to keep on letting it evolve and teach it's lessons in our schools, and I'm guessing that people yet born will be happy about that.

[Corso]

Well, in recent history, I guess the frightening "left" movements that were women's right to vote, the right to unionize, the civil rights movement, the notion that a woman's body is her own, the idea that the elderly should not live in poverty, the notion that the poor should not go without medical care, turned out to be seen as good things that made us a better, stronger, more humane nation and we decided that maybe it made sense to teach those ideas and see if we could do even better.

If you want to try on a "right", authoritarian government suffering from none of the awful baggage of a "left", aka progressive government, I think there are quite a few to choose from. To everybody who carps about "progressives" or what is called "left" in the USA (or, heavens, even Europe!), pick a country with an ineffective government, lax business and other regulations, much inequality and a huge disparity in wealth distribution....take it for a spin for a year or two and get back to us.

At what point in time would you like to have frozen "progress"? Before the reformation? When the world was flat? During slavery? When we thought it OK to commit genocide against Native Americans? Now? Personally, Ida frozen bicycle technology progress right before indexed shifting, but human progress....I'm pretty happy to keep on letting it evolve and teach it's lessons in our schools, and I'm guessing that people yet born will be happy about that.

John, to take on the biggest point and the term being thrown around a lot lately:
Southern Democrats and racism. Do you remember a little thing called the Civil War? Who invented the Jim Crow laws? The KKK?
One big thing I have to give the Democratic party, is the way history is distorted, repackaged and sold via our left leaning educational system.

Democratic Party's Racist History | National Review

For those who don’t want to follow the link, here’s a sample:

>>Speaking of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, let’s review (since they don’t teach this in schools): The percentage of House Democrats who supported the legislation? 61 percent. House Republicans? 80 percent. In the Senate, 69 percent of Democrats voted yes, compared with 82 percent of Republicans. (Barry Goldwater, a supporter of the NAACP, voted no because he thought it was unconstitutional.)<<



I believe the original “how did this happen” was pointed at our educational system being controlled by the left.
My guess is union control. My mother was a teacher, the propaganda she was sent for years most likely aided in my opinion of the left.

[colker]

Well, in recent history, I guess the frightening "left" movements that were women's right to vote, the right to unionize, the civil rights movement, the notion that a woman's body is her own, the idea that the elderly should not live in poverty, the notion that the poor should not go without medical care, turned out to be seen as good things that made us a better, stronger, more humane nation and we decided that maybe it made sense to teach those ideas and see if we could do even better.

If you want to try on a "right", authoritarian government suffering from none of the awful baggage of a "left", aka progressive government, I think there are quite a few to choose from. To everybody who carps about "progressives" or what is called "left" in the USA (or, heavens, even Europe!), pick a country with an ineffective government, lax business and other regulations, much inequality and a huge disparity in wealth distribution....take it for a spin for a year or two and get back to us.

At what point in time would you like to have frozen "progress"? Before the reformation? When the world was flat? During slavery? When we thought it OK to commit genocide against Native Americans? Now? Personally, Ida frozen bicycle technology progress right before indexed shifting, but human progress....I'm pretty happy to keep on letting it evolve and teach it's lessons in our schools, and I'm guessing that people yet born will be happy about that.

Your post is lacking in facts. First, equating Right w/ authoritarian. Second, equating it w/ social injustice and disparity. I can find way more examples of
Leftist authoritarian regimes where a privileged few become billionaires while the people live in poverty in the late 20th century. The whole eastern Europe, Congo, Brasil, Cuba, N Korea.. the list is long. Now bring us a current authoritarian right wing state.. Russia, maybe, where an ex KGB officer takes care that the privileged few of the ex socialist regime keep hands on the economy.

And then you come w/ the idea of progress and it should be taught at schools. Look around and check the economic crisis in Greece and Brasil where a bloated State, fed by huge taxes, where millions of public jobs w/ privileged retirement funds have broken their economies and tell us again how unions are just progress.

Finnally, what is there to learn w/ Trump's electoral victory? The lesson is simple: people living at the hard edges of economy are not convinced that progressive thinking represents them. People perceive such politics as an authoritarian ideology which ignores their hardships while promoting a one only narrow view of human nature, one they cannot adopt under their circumstances. Those people may have chosen a wrong answer to their problems but they sure cracked the wall of blind propaganda that progressive thinking became... and that is the only positive i can think of this election right now.

[Loknor]

Your post is lacking in facts.

Finnally, what is there to learn w/ Trump's electoral victory? The lesson is simple: people living at the hard edges of economy are not convinced that progressive thinking represents them.

I advise you to check the average income of the Trump voter before tooting about facts.
.

[colker]

I advise you to check the average income of the Trump voter before tooting about facts.
.

I did and how about the rest of my post... how far from the facts you think i am?

[Loknor]

I understand that you are pissed at the world and that's okay. All I'm saying is that you need to take a step back and read the posts that you seem to be so upset about and adress those points. The discussion doesn't become more effective if we resort to strawmanning or stating opinion as fact when reality indicates it's quite a bit different.

Sometimes there is no easy answer. That does not mean that the hard answer is not worthwhile.

[colker]

I understand that you are pissed at the world and that's okay. All I'm saying is that you need to take a step back and read the posts that you seem to be so upset about and adress those points. The discussion doesn't become more effective if we resort to strawmanning or stating opinion as fact when reality indicates it's quite a bit different.

Sometimes there is no easy answer. That does not mean that the hard answer is not worthwhile.

I am watching the progressive side of politics falling apart. Progressive politics do not admit the existence of Doubt. You cannot doubt the canon and the slogans or you become a fascist, racist or pissed at the world. Progressive politics can exist only by saying and not necessarily proving, we need to march w/ the Progress. What if there is no progress? What if there are conflicting views that must co exist under certain legal principles?
I am not pissed... I could say you are pissed at the democratic proccess but then i believe political debate is about ideas and not personal attacks. I also believe it' authoritarian when you can only accept one view of very complex issues like language, right to your body etc...

[andrew]

John, to take on the biggest point and the term being thrown around a lot lately:
Southern Democrats and racism. Do you remember a little thing called the Civil War? Who invented the Jim Crow laws? The KKK?
One big thing I have to give the Democratic party, is the way history is distorted, repackaged and sold via our left leaning educational system.

Democratic Party's Racist History | National Review

For those who don’t want to follow the link, here’s a sample:

>>Speaking of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, let’s review (since they don’t teach this in schools): The percentage of House Democrats who supported the legislation? 61 percent. House Republicans? 80 percent. In the Senate, 69 percent of Democrats voted yes, compared with 82 percent of Republicans. (Barry Goldwater, a supporter of the NAACP, voted no because he thought it was unconstitutional.)<<



I believe the original “how did this happen” was pointed at our educational system being controlled by the left.
My guess is union control. My mother was a teacher, the propaganda she was sent for years most likely aided in my opinion of the left.

Corso,
I guess the history being distorted thing goes both ways. While the historic Southern "Yellow Dog" Democrat was indeed the party of Jim Crow, white power and the KKK, those same Yellow Dog Democrats left the party for the REPUBLICAN party. The New Deal Democratic Party was a coalition of these Southern white democrats, poor working class northerners, and the black population that were hit hard by the depression. The New Deal (a HUGE government relief program by the DEMOCRATS) brought these groups together in a coalition. Do you remember what finally broke that coalition? Do you remember what part of that coalition left the Democratic Party? And do you remember what party they went to?
In general terms, the white southern democrat in the post Civil Rights Act/Voting Rights Act is a very conservative christian (evangelical) voter. As they aged they sided with the Republican Party most often and the following generations swept through local and state governments to swing control to the Republican Party. And it really is not uncommon for a Democratic candidate in the south to be to the RIGHT of many national Republicans on many issues.
I guess what I am trying to say is that yes, while the Democratic Party has a history of racism, that part of the party is now, and has been for decades, REPUBLICAN.
I am southern, white, and middle class. I grew up not far from a billboard that warned blacks to be out of the county by sundown. I grew up with and went to school with the grandson of a KKK Grand Dragon. Most of my family is registered democrat. Outside of my sister, I am not aware of any family member that has voted democrat at the local level in years, and since Max Cleland was ousted, none have voted Democratic at the National level. I know that the hardest thing most of my immediate family had ever done politically was to not vote republican this year.
I was just in my fathers home town in south Georgia. There are usually a few Confederate Flags flying when I visit. In the 47 years that I have been in the South, I have never seen as many flying as there were this past weekend. And every one of them was accompanied by multiple Trump signs.
To use the article linked as a way to say that the Democratic Party is forgetting its racist past, while claiming that "the more Republican the South has become, the less racist" is disingenuous at best, an outright lie at worst.
Andrew

[Corso]

Corso,

I was just in my fathers home town in south Georgia. There are usually a few Confederate Flags flying when I visit. In the 47 years that I have been in the South, I have never seen as many flying as there were this past weekend. And every one of them was accompanied by multiple Trump signs.

Andrew,
Thank you for the first hand report. This means more to me than the countless websites that both left & right can use to support claims.

In my trips down south in the past 8 years, I’ve been surprised that I’ve seen very, very few confederate flags. I’ve learned how hurtful a symbol that flag is, and to see some tie it to the new President is disturbing.

I’m from the north, born & raised in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. A very blue state. I’ve been surrounded by the left all my life, family, friend, teachers, etc etc. I’ve spent my life debating the left/right topic. I know I can not sway someone with deep left feelings, but all I can do is point out the hypocrisy I find rampant in the party and my surroundings. It’s hard for me to be silent.

Big example: Senator Elizabeth Warren declared herself american indian to get her teaching job at Harvard, was paid $350,000 (or around that, reports vary) to teach ONE class, and rants and raves how students are getting screwed by the high cost of college. She bought foreclosed homes to flip for profit, but the big banks are “BAD”. She complains non-stop about Wall ST, but accepted millions from them for her campaign. She’s attacked Trump on all sides, but she never held an elected position before her first run either. Queen of hypocrisy. And she’s the darling of the Democratic party.

Small example: a relative who worked for the state (urban transport planning) gave me non-stop crap about driving an mid size-SUV. At the same time, her husband bought a new Hemi-Charger R/T. And no matter what was said, I was “wrong” in her head.

But I think I’m starting to get way OT here, and my argument is becoming circular. I’m not adding anymore, so I’m out.

I appreciate the chance to type out an opposing view, and the monitors letting this run.

My last statement on this. He won, she lost. Someone always wins, and losses, That’s our process. I’d rather see people accept the process before reacting negatively. No one thought he could win, myself included. He did. No one thinks he know what he’s doing. For the sake of our country, I hope he surprises us again.

[jclay]

John, to take on the biggest point and the term being thrown around a lot lately:
Southern Democrats and racism. Do you remember a little thing called the Civil War? Who invented the Jim Crow laws? The KKK?
One big thing I have to give the Democratic party, is the way history is distorted, repackaged and sold via our left leaning educational system.

Democratic Party's Racist History | National Review

For those who don’t want to follow the link, here’s a sample:

>>Speaking of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, let’s review (since they don’t teach this in schools): The percentage of House Democrats who supported the legislation? 61 percent. House Republicans? 80 percent. In the Senate, 69 percent of Democrats voted yes, compared with 82 percent of Republicans. (Barry Goldwater, a supporter of the NAACP, voted no because he thought it was unconstitutional.)<<



I believe the original “how did this happen” was pointed at our educational system being controlled by the left.
My guess is union control. My mother was a teacher, the propaganda she was sent for years most likely aided in my opinion of the left.

1) You'll notice I cleverly didn't use the term "Democrat". That was not by accident. It is not what I would call a progressive party. It is "left", or liberal only in a few areas.
2) You surely realize that the political bent of the two parties has moved around, some might say flip flopped, over the centuries.
3) Yes, white Southerners found refuge from Northern oppression within the Democratic Party as it was at that time. Johnson's support of the Civil Rights Act took care of that. If you think the Republican Party of today is the vanguard of progressive thought, wrt general social and cultural issues, you are quite mistaken. The Democratic Party of today is what most progressives have mistakenly taken for progressive, and as I said, it is but only in a limited portion of the political spectrum. When it comes to foreign policy, military intervention, deregulation and selling off the public trust (Glass Steagall, NAFTA, TPP for example), general acceptance of growing corporate consolidation, they are anything but progressive or left. And that's the joke, and the problem. My educated Republican friends think the Democratic Party is a bunch of leftist commies...I exaggerate only a little.