New Kitchens / Remodels

[crumpton]

i suspect its just an old dog new trick thing. i'm stubborn. i think there has been too much change for me in the last year or so and the Bosch was the straw.

now one of you appliance snobs go buy my damn espresso machine will yah?

[Scott G.]

I still get a laugh out of the utensil rack map - letters A though H or something, a key to say A=spoon, B=knife etc.
Every time I stack the dishwasher I hear some engineer somewhere shouting
"Nein, nein, nein, Messer gehen in B! Löffel gehen in A!"

fixed it for you.

[j44ke]

Sticking with the long-term review thing: Miele dishwasher gets a thumbs up, Miele counter-depth fridge (rebadged Thermador) gets a double thumbs up, Miele 48" range gets a boo and a hiss, Miele support and install gets a bag full of poo set on fire and left on every executives' doorstep. Perlick mini fridge gets a eh, works pretty good. Perlick support gets a thumbs up.

I'd say that last one equals the Leibherr we have. As vegetarians mostly (and with NYC outside) we almost never use a freezer. But I wish the ice maker would work. Customer support is great. I call, they come, its fixed, they leave, it works, it doesn't work, I call, etc. But vegetables last forever in the crisper drawer. Terrific refrigerator, so 1/2 works well, but it is sort of a tall mini fridge.

[j44ke]

What say the brain trust to the following brands and types? I have specific models but I am just trying to get a sense of actual reliability versus everything is rosy advertising.

Fisher Paykel - 30" refrigerator, gas cook top, single wall oven

MGS kitchen faucet, shower faucet

Wolf single wall oven, gas cooktop

Our architects have penciled in a Gaggenau cooktop and wall oven, Vola kitchen faucet, bathroom faucet, shower faucet, Sub-Zero 30" integrated refrigerator w/two freezer doors, and Fisher Paykel tall single DishDrawer dishwashers. A lot of cash there, but solid reliability for the most part, though I've heard murmurings about the Sub-Zero. But if you'd like to chime in on any of those, please do, because I am building up a list of lower priced alternatives in case/when budget requires adjustment.

[rwsaunders]

Jorn...I might jinx myself but our Sub has been in use for 20 years now with absolutely no issues...42" double door unit with a side freezer. I'm not sure what the ROI is but it fits just perfect and does what it's supposed to do. We have a Thermador double oven with one unit being a convection oven, and a 5-burner Thermador gas cooktop...all in operation for 20 years serving a family of five. I recall that a module went out on the double oven about 2-3 years ago...$200-300. I'm sure that there are refrigerators out there in the market that are 22" deep because that was one of the Sub's selling points years ago...cabinet flush depth and the compressor up above. I'd also want to know where the repair tech is coming from as you do hear some horror stories about replacement parts availability with some brands.

[sine]

I would not recommend Fisher Paykel anything.

Faucets, am a big fan of Grohe but for our kitchen reno earlier this year we purchased 2 Italian made faucets (Fortis) because they look great and felt solid. Long term?? There are plenty of excellent faucets to choose from.

SubZ and Wolf. Fine company and they can fix it 15 years later.

Not yet comfortable with the serviceability of European range/cooktop/oven brands. They will need more service than top American firms Wolf or 5 Star.

[nahtnoj]

Am going to need new kitchen appliances in the next 6 months or so. Lots of re-modeling to do so we're taking it pretty easy in the kitchen. Re-arranging cabinets and adding a few new ones as needed, and new flooring.

Budget? Dunno. What are Ultegra-level appliances?

Rural property. No gas service. There is a giant propane tank to feed the backup generator, so we can take advantage of that.

Kitchen is going to be reconfigured. Cooktop on the island, most likely. Electric is actually somewhat appealing to keep the island surface flat and clean.

Wall oven next to the fridge, dishwasher, all the basic stuff.

[jmagoulas]

I would not recommend Fisher Paykel anything.

I 2nd this. Basically throw away equipment as not many will work on it also parts are hard to come by for the DIYer. We have used Miele and have nothing but praises for the fridge and dishwasher. The dishwasher is a work horse with a growing family of 5 and honestly the hardest working appliance we own.

Faucet wise we use Rohl. Have had to use there warranty service once due to a sticky faucet handle. Although probably our fault due to use. No questions asked sent us the part and easy to replace.

[Cookietruck]

on a positive note the Bertazzoni range is very nice though I went 24" and I have to remove a rack to stuff a 5qt Le Creuset and my beloved AlClad lasagna pan doesn't fit at all(handles in the way)

are you still liking the Bertazzoni ?

I'm looking at 36" ranges and Bertazzoni look nice, reviews seems mixed. I'm reading cookies are hard to bake in the oven...lol...but many other ranges get that same gripe. Honestly so many of these "reviews" I'm reading seem like bullshit.

How is the heat insulation when using the range?

[caleb]

Am going to need new kitchen appliances in the next 6 months or so. Lots of re-modeling to do so we're taking it pretty easy in the kitchen. Re-arranging cabinets and adding a few new ones as needed, and new flooring.

Budget? Dunno. What are Ultegra-level appliances?

Rural property. No gas service. There is a giant propane tank to feed the backup generator, so we can take advantage of that.

Kitchen is going to be reconfigured. Cooktop on the island, most likely. Electric is actually somewhat appealing to keep the island surface flat and clean.

Wall oven next to the fridge, dishwasher, all the basic stuff.

We bought a new place last month, and have been going through some of the same choices.

We're on gas, so that impacted my choices. A 30" GE gas range with a couple 15k BTU burners, a basic Frigidaire stainless refrigerator (I can't imagine caring about a refrigerator as long as it works), a Bosch 800 dishwasher, and the biggest Maytag top loading washer and dryer. I made the decisions based largely on feel. Within price ranges, there's still drastically different feels to them.

The one thing I'd change if I were on electric is that I'd think about an induction cooktop. Coils and glass tops are both of the devil.

Speaking of choices, is navy the new red?

[j44ke]

We ended up with MGS faucets. They are an Italian brand and the finish and operation is really nice. Vola faucets are nut$, though I know they are durable. 80% of a faucet's durability is the valve etc. that goes in the wall, and the stuff for MGS looks really nicely made.

Bosch now makes a nice wall oven with either left or right hinge. We wanted the oven higher on the wall than the install height for the Wolf ovens, and when you go up that high you need a side hinge door. HBLP451 is the number on that model plus letter designation for left or right opening door. The door is not switchable so you have to spec the correct orientation.

We also wanted the Wolf cooktop that is flush mounted in the surface of the counter and has the knobs on the cabinet front, but the limits on space and requirement for a downdraft meant that we didn't get that one. I think that's a nice cooktop though - CG365CS is the model number - as well as being a nice looking cooktop.

These things are all weird. You have your kitchen design, then you pick the appliances to fit into the slots, and then you realize that there are all these other parameters that mean XYZ doesn't fit so you redesign the kitchen, and then you end up with a few intractable issues vis a vis power, exhaust, thermal separation, drawers, etc. In our case, the less expensive items required a more expensive redesign and construction of the kitchen island than the more expensive items that would require no redesign and on-budget construction, which meant overall it was slightly cheaper to use the more expensive appliances, so that's what we did.

The most important appliance in the entire house is still going to be the espresso machine.

[72gmc]

Pretty sure my wife still wants a Neff Slide-and-Hide oven (or two), and I'm pretty sure we'd have to redesign our kitchen around Neff appliances to get that.

+ whatever on coils and glass tops being awful. Glass tops are for G Paltrow.

[j44ke]

Those Neff’s are pretty cool. Unfortunately wall ovens are still nearly a niche product. American ovens have to fit a 20lbs turkey and stuffing and potatoes. I suspect collusion between the turkey producers and the range makers.

[davids]

These things are all weird. You have your kitchen design, then you pick the appliances to fit into the slots, and then you realize that there are all these other parameters that mean XYZ doesn't fit so you redesign the kitchen, and then you end up with a few intractable issues vis a vis power, exhaust, thermal separation, drawers, etc. In our case, the less expensive items required a more expensive redesign and construction of the kitchen island than the more expensive items that would require no redesign and on-budget construction, which meant overall it was slightly cheaper to use the more expensive appliances, so that's what we did.

Um. We didn't have that issue.

Maybe this is an issue with higher end appliances? We had no issues with fitting the appliances we chose (hood, stove, fridge, dishwasher, sink, faucet, microwave) in the spots designated for those items. Neither me nor my wife could figure out why, say, a Wolf was worth the massive premium over a GE.

And I recently had a conversation with the salesman at a very well-known local store when, as I was buying a washing machine, he said, "...just don't get a Miele. Those things are completely non-standard and they break." I got the cheapest LG they had in stock. I guess he doesn't work on commission.

[j44ke]

Um. We didn't have that issue.

Maybe this is an issue with higher end appliances? We had no issues with fitting the appliances we chose (hood, stove, fridge, dishwasher, sink, faucet, microwave) in the spots designated for those items. Neither me nor my wife could figure out why, say, a Wolf was worth the massive premium over a GE.

And I recently had a conversation with the salesman at a very well-known local store when, as I was buying a washing machine, he said, "...just don't get a Miele. Those things are completely non-standard and they break." I got the cheapest LG they had in stock. I guess he doesn't work on commission.

It wasn't fitting the appliances in. It was working with a 100% custom design and figuring out creative way to get plumbing and electricity and ventilation where it needed to go. Our house is going to be glass and a series of cabinets covered by a roof. Some of the cabinets hold a refrigerator, some of the cabinets hold a bathroom. So self-induced complexity, but it is all designed up now and really really cool.

[j44ke]

I'd say one of the big differences between good appliances and expensive good cooktops/ranges is control of the cooking temperature. It is one of those things you didn't know you actually needed until you have it. Really crazy range of adjustability on the flame with high range btus and multiple burner rings on a single burner. Makes cooking on multiple burners as you make several different things at once a lot easier. And you know, just like any really nice tool, there is just the pleasure of use. Like a Campy chain tool. Or an Abbey Tools titanium hammer.

[vvv321]

Having cooked on gas and electric induction ranges, I would give it to induction, the speed of the heat and the control beats gas hands down for me.

[fastupslowdown]

waking this thread up. i need to replace my oven range it's a 30 inch slide in. from the minimal research i've done it seems i have to stick with that. does that sound accurate? and if i have to go slide in it seems like options narrow down. i was thinking miele based on reliability but they only do free standing. so what's the more reliable free standing ranges that have the features? kitchen aid? GE Cafe and I guess Samsung? Any recommendations? The previous Kitchenaid lasted 18 years. It's been OK but not great. Concerned because read some online reviews that quality had gone down. G.E. sold the business, Samsung is unknown to me and was never that thrilled with BOSCH? What's my best option? -Mike G

[htwoopup]

and Fisher Paykel tall single DishDrawer dishwashers.

Only seeing this now since Mike woke up the thread. Hope I am not too late.

The apartment we bought came with these. Worst thought out, engineered, and built pieces of garbage ever. More than two people and/ or two serving dishes you can’t even load all the plates you used. And forgot about it if you use a single bowl.

I miss the Miele full size I had in my old place. That was fantastic.

Oh and the Liebherr fridge sucks. I swear the Liebherr and then Mr Appliance guy have to live n my apartment to keep the ice maker going. Thankfully it’s Manhattan so the deli down the street has bags of ice which even with Manhattan deli prices seems a cheaper alternative than the Manhattan appliance repair prices.

[htwoopup]

FAnd Mike, I loved my Kitchen Aid too in fridges though. The KitchenAid gas stove/oven I have now is likely to be thrown out when every piece of overpriced crap that is in this kitchen get replaced. Which will be in the next five minutes because this thread has me so worked up. I loved my Thermador ovens I had in my old place. It had a separate Thermador gas cooktop which was also great. I just don’t have the space in the new place for that solution though.