irrational fear of flying

[EricKeller]

my daughter wanted to use mine and she reported that she hears voices really well with them on. I think they must have more than 10-15db of attenuation, but that's not enough for her. So being partially deaf is paying off for me, I suppose

Noise cancellation isn't going to work too well on non-repeated sounds like voices. That would be non-causal.

[SteveP]

Oh boy...
the Ethiopian Air crash was also a 737 max...
too early to say anything but the initial report was that it took off, the pilot asked to return to the airport and then it dove into the ground...
similar to the Lion Air crash.

this is very bad news for Boeing in any case.

[sine]

Oh boy...
the Ethiopian Air crash was also a 737 max...
too early to say anything but the initial report was that it took off, the pilot asked to return to the airport and then it dove into the ground...
similar to the Lion Air crash.

this is very bad news for Boeing in any case.

Yes. The planes are now grounded.

[j44ke]

Yes. The planes are now grounded.

Not in the US.

[SteveP]

This should be filed under
Rational fear of flying
for the record.

2 or 3 US pilots report having the same problem with this plane but they knew or figured out how to shut off the auto pilot.

[Saab2000]

I haven’t heard of issues with the trim system among US carriers. I’d like to read these reports.

We don’t know if this most recent accident is related to the trim system but if it is found to be related it would seem very possible that the FAA will ground the variant.

Let’s wait for more facts to come to light before we succumb to fear. That said, solely from a PR perspective it might be smart to do something to calm the hysteria. But I operate this variant and feel confident in my training and systems and procedural knowledge to manage a trim issue. But we don’t even know if the second incident is trim related.

I’m waiting for more facts before I get too worked up. But I could see the value in grounding the variant in the interest of public confidence until we can be 100% certain about its safety.

[SteveP]

This was in the NY Times this morning.

Pilots on U.S. routes had reported concerns about the Max 8

At least two pilots who flew Boeing 737 Max 8 planes on routes in the United States had raised concerns in November about the noses of their planes suddenly dipping after engaging autopilot, according to a federal government database of incident reports.

The problems the pilots experienced appeared similar to those preceding the October crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia, in which 189 people were killed. The cause of that crash remains under investigation, but it is believed that inaccurate readings fed into the Max 8’s computerized system may have made the plane enter a sudden, automatic descent.

In both of the American cases, the pilots safely resumed their climbs after turning off autopilot. One of the pilots said the descent began two to three seconds after turning on the automated system.

Hope that they can figure this out and make suitable arrangements to fix the problem. So far, it seems that they have failed.

[Saab2000]

This was in the NY Times this morning.

Pilots on U.S. routes had reported concerns about the Max 8

At least two pilots who flew Boeing 737 Max 8 planes on routes in the United States had raised concerns in November about the noses of their planes suddenly dipping after engaging autopilot, according to a federal government database of incident reports.

The problems the pilots experienced appeared similar to those preceding the October crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia, in which 189 people were killed. The cause of that crash remains under investigation, but it is believed that inaccurate readings fed into the Max 8’s computerized system may have made the plane enter a sudden, automatic descent.

In both of the American cases, the pilots safely resumed their climbs after turning off autopilot. One of the pilots said the descent began two to three seconds after turning on the automated system.

Hope that they can figure this out and make suitable arrangements to fix the problem. So far, it seems that they have failed.

I have subsequently seen this article. There are methods in the airline world for anonymously reporting safety concerns. At appears this is what happened. It’s a good system.

Like everyone else, I hope Boeing and the FAA get to that bottom of this, and soon.

[jclay]

This is all from memory but:

The tenor of my recollection from the 60s thru 90s is that aircraft models experiencing odd and not adequately explained in-flight problems that resulted in crashes were typically grounded straight away until the FAA was pretty sure they were OK to fly. Maybe I'm wrong but that's the sense I retain.

I seem to recall a Tri-Star or DC-11 having an engine break away from the wing a long time ago. I think they were either grounded, or inspections seriously fast tracked, until the root cause had been identified. Though perhaps not as visually dramatic as seeing an engine separate from an airplane I see these two recent Max crashes in a similar light.

Perhaps I'm just getting more cynical in my old age but I get the feeling that our regulatory bodies are increasingly forced into overly collegial relationships with the industries that they regulate. Some of that is from first hand experience in the environmental biz. And there is no question that over the years, with a crescendo during Trump, that former industry heavy weight folks are now occupying top positions in our regulatory agencies. That's not just stupid and short sighted, it's malfeasance.

And what are we.....a year and a half without an FAA secretary? A "small government" acquaintance this morning said that that just goes to show that it's not an important job. What an intellect!

[rwsaunders]

Trump's running the FAA now as he just grounded the 737-MAX. I saw it coming on Monday as American cancelled my ORD-PIT flight which was scheduled for Friday, on Monday. When I called to rebook and asked about the reason behind a cancellation 5 days in advance, I was told that it was an "aircraft coordination" issue. "Oh and don't worry Mr. Saunders, instead of flying home on a one hour, direct flight in the late afternoon, you are now SOL as the earlier direct flight is sold out and we have rebooked you on a connection through Philadelphia, which should have you arriving home somewhere around midnight."

[j44ke]

The differences seem to be that the pilots who reported the problem knew that the autopilot was the system to shut off to prevent the plane from automatically nose-diving. The pilots in the planes that crashed did not know that the autopilot needed to be shut off, otherwise they would have done it.

The question seems to be what is the conflict between systems that causes the nose-dive when the autopilot system is turned on in some situations. The autopilot may operate perfectly. The system it conflicts with may also operate perfectly. However, in some situations, the interaction between the two appears to create a conflict that leads to a crash if the autopilot is not switched off. That's the problem. You could say this is a pilot error or lack of training, but one might wonder about a design that requires a pilot to be ready at any moment to switch off something that will result in the total loss of the airplane and its passengers if left on.

Like if the owner's manual in your car says that if you turn on your cruise control and the car turns hard to the right, disengage the cruise control and control of the car's steering will return, and when people start crashing into guardrails, the manufacturer says "Should have read the manual."

[SteveP]

follow up on why the us finally stopped flying the planes despite the incompetence of the trump admin...

no doubt customers were asking what plane they were going on and switching airlines if they heard 737 max.
If I remember correctly one of the selling points from Boeing was that
" no additional pilot training was required to fly these planes..." as a cost saving device for the airlines.

[rwsaunders]

Amercian Airlines posted this yesterday...

Newsroom - FAA Temporarily Grounds All Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft - American Airlines Group, Inc.

FAA Temporarily Grounds All Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft
Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 3:50 PM
Download PDF (English) PDF Format (opens in new window)

On March 13, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) grounded all U.S.-registered Boeing 737 MAX aircraft, including the 8 and 9 variants, as a precautionary measure. This includes the 24 MAX 8 aircraft in the American Airlines fleet. We are complying with the FAA directive.

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.

The safety and security of our team members and our customers remains our top priority. We continue to have the utmost confidence in our fleet, which is flown by our highly-trained pilots and maintained by our highly-skilled maintenance team.
American regularly monitors aircraft performance and safety parameters across our entire fleet, including extensive flight data collection. This data, along with our analysis, gives us confidence in the safe operation of all of our aircraft, and contributes to American’s exemplary safety record. American has flown more than 2.5 million passengers — during 46,400 operating hours encompassing nearly 18,000 flights — safely on our MAX 8 fleet since the first one was delivered Sept. 2017 and began commercial service later that November.

We apologize for the inconvenience this may cause some of our customers. Our team will work with all customers impacted by these flight cancellations in order to rebook them to their final destination. Affected customers can rebook by contacting our reservations team. If a flight is canceled, customers may request a full refund by visiting our website. Customers who booked through a travel agent are requested to contact their agency directly.

American is working in close coordination with our union partners, the Department of Transportation, FAA, National Transportation Safety Board and other regulatory authorities, as the safety of our team members and customers is always our number one priority.

[j44ke]

Seems like Allied Pilots Association were not happy about flying a plane with changes and not being told about the changes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.e39961b03b59

[vertical_doug]

Last year, Norwegian Airlines had a problem with the Rolls Royce engines on some of their Dreamliners. The planes were grounded and Norwegian air had to spend $119mm to lease a A380 to cover the shortfall in planes. They sued Rolls Royce and were compensated.

They have grounded their 737m8 so expect they will file claim vs Boeing. I expect other airlines to follow suit.

[j44ke]

Double post. Nevermind.

[SteveP]

An additional note is, when the Lion air plane crashed... it was all over that Malaysian pilots are not well trained, etc..
Also that the Ethiopian plane co-pilot had very few hours, blah, blah... all despite a number of complaints from US pilots as we find out.

Very poorly done by Being.

[Saab2000]

The differences seem to be that the pilots who reported the problem knew that the autopilot was the system to shut off to prevent the plane from automatically nose-diving. The pilots in the planes that crashed did not know that the autopilot needed to be shut off, otherwise they would have done it.

The question seems to be what is the conflict between systems that causes the nose-dive when the autopilot system is turned on in some situations. The autopilot may operate perfectly. The system it conflicts with may also operate perfectly. However, in some situations, the interaction between the two appears to create a conflict that leads to a crash if the autopilot is not switched off. That's the problem. You could say this is a pilot error or lack of training, but one might wonder about a design that requires a pilot to be ready at any moment to switch off something that will result in the total loss of the airplane and its passengers if left on.

Like if the owner's manual in your car says that if you turn on your cruise control and the car turns hard to the right, disengage the cruise control and control of the car's steering will return, and when people start crashing into guardrails, the manufacturer says "Should have read the manual."

This is full of misleading and inaccurate suppositions. The autopilot is not akin to a cruise control in this context. With all respect, your post assumes the pilots in question, and the engineers, were a handful of idiots who don't know procedures or systems or checklists or how to fly an airplane, which I assure everyone, they were likely not. These were experienced and highly trained pilots and their loss, along with their trusting passengers, is devastating.

I reference my post of a few months ago on handling a trim runaway in this type. It is in this thread. This is serious stuff. These are vastly more complex machines than an automobile and are designed and operated by serious people. They take safety very seriously because in a very literal sense, they have skin in the game.

An additional note is, when the Lion air plane crashed... it was all over that Malaysian pilots are not well trained, etc..
Also that the Ethiopian plane co-pilot had very few hours, blah, blah... all despite a number of complaints from US pilots as we find out.

Very poorly done by Being.

Sorry man, but Lion Air is an Indonesian carrier, not a Malaysian carrier. It ain't the same thing. We need to do better here. Maps and a quick geography and cultural lesson will teach us something.


I'm neither defending nor condemning Boeing in this case. But in neither case do we really yet know what happened. None of us designed this airplane nor did any of us sit in those seats during these terrifying minutes.

I was at work in Zurich when Swissair 111 ended up in the north Atlantic off of Peggy's Cove, near Halifax, and we all heard the reports of an MD-11 that disappeared from the radar and never landed in Geneva after departing from JFK. There were peoples' wives and children and husbands on board and I personally witnessed people weeping at the airport because of this awful, awful accident. Much of the crew lived within miles of where I lived. Imagine your family not coming home that morning. Or any subsequent morning. This weighs on everyone in my business.

After moving back to the US I sat in classes where folks mocked the crew for not handling this accident correctly. But guess what. None of those people were sitting in an airplane on fire, with burning, dripping plastic landing on their hand and head with failing instruments as they tried to find a runway looking through a window filled with acrid black smoke trying to fly a 200 ton airplane with no reference other than a flashlight on the single remaining mechanical horizon and airspeed indicator. This is what happened. Look at the Transport Canada report. It is sobering.

I'm almost getting choked up over this because it hits very close to home. I've made my whole life's work in this business and I'm bothered by the hysteria and fear that drives the comments here. The number one driver of everyone I know in this business is SAFETY. That's not hyperbole, it's the truth because we all know folks on board all these airplanes and my mother and brothers and sister and nieces and nephew fly on them. Do people actually think this is just a charade to appease corporate interests? Unless I'm mistaken we have members who work at Boeing. I bet they take their work extremely seriously.

Wait for the facts and find a way forward. But don't let fear and hysteria drive this conversation. It is likely mistakes have been made but let's wait for facts before we claim to know everything.

Carry on.

[j44ke]

This is full of misleading and inaccurate suppositions. The autopilot is not akin to a cruise control in this context. With all respect, your post assumes the pilots in question, and the engineers, were a handful of idiots who don't know procedures or systems or checklists or how to fly an airplane, which I assure everyone, they were likely not. These were experienced and highly trained pilots and their loss, along with their trusting passengers, is devastating.

That's actually not what I am assuming. I know from reading about the background on these crashes that the pilots were experienced. One of the pilots in the Ethiopian Air plane was very experienced. Further I know background on Ethiopian Air from reporting done by a friend who works for the Economist. They are all professionals, highly trained, many of them were military fliers, some with combat experience, and the older pilots flew in an era when Ethiopian Air had old planes landing on tough landing strips across Ethiopia.

Analogies are by definition imperfect. And of course I don't know how to fly a plane. But I do know the smell of something gone wrong and when things don't add up. And I don't believe in giving a corporation time and space to figure out what is going on, because experience shows that they are more than likely to come up with a cover story. Applying pressure to their wallets is the only way to make things productive happen.

But if you fly this plane, I can understand why this might be an emotionally trying time for you. And that reading speculation that isn't well briefed in aeronautics might seem worthless to you as well. But many of us here have to go out and get on one of these things or have a family member who does frequently, so we're going to need to hack our way through the details too, as inelegant as our efforts may be.

[SteveP]

Apologies for any misstatements I have made.
I appreciate your response Saab and know that this hits home for you.

I'm just a guy who gets on the plane and hopes to get off afterward.
It is compelling reading to see the info come out afterward and see the flight lines of these 2 crashes and not connect them.

Bigger picture though is that it seems apparent that additional pilot training should be expected to fly this new plane.
Details will no doubt come out at some point about the actions of the pilots in both crashes.
And note that several USA pilots made comments on the issue on the anonymous board that can be used to make observations about flight anomalies.
Boeing did expect a software update by the end of 2018... to address this issue? Seems like it.

On the USA and it's acting FAA finally grounding the planes ( not the ones that were flying at the time* They had to land before they were grounded. WTF?* ).
It would make interesting reading to see how many ticket holders were refusing to get onto these planes at that point.


* trump comment.