Throw Away Culture

[steve garro]

Man.

What's going to happen with all the batteries coming down the pike?

- Garro.

[TonyP]

Man.

What's going to happen with all the batteries coming down the pike?

- Garro.

Probably be ignored till they become too big a problem.

[Too Tall]

Man.

What's going to happen with all the batteries coming down the pike?

- Garro.

We both know third world locales will get skrewed.

OT I got a note from the motorsports race track. They are banning permanently and for-evah all e-vehicles. Apparently, they go boom.

[rwsaunders]

Man.

What's going to happen with all the batteries coming down the pike?

- Garro.

We will create a government department to oversee the cleanup and firms will make billions from taxpayer subsidies.

https://www.energy.gov/em/cleanup-sites

[bigbill]

From 2004-2007, I was the project lead on submarine battery replacements in Hawaii and a few boats in San Diego. 126 cell lead acid batteries, each cell weighing 3/4 of a ton. The batteries that came out were packaged in the shipping crates that the new battery arrived in. They then went back to the manufacturer, GNB, which was a subsidiary of Exide, for recycling into new batteries. IMO, any battery design needs to have a clear path for recycling. Newer submarines have sealed, maintenance free AGM batteries which should last longer.

[RichTheRoadie]

From 2004-2007, I was the project lead on submarine battery replacements in Hawaii and a few boats in San Diego. 126 cell lead acid batteries, each cell weighing 3/4 of a ton. The batteries that came out were packaged in the shipping crates that the new battery arrived in. They then went back to the manufacturer, GNB, which was a subsidiary of Exide, for recycling into new batteries. IMO, any battery design needs to have a clear path for recycling. Newer submarines have sealed, maintenance free AGM batteries which should last longer.

This is what scares me about electric cars - dear god I hope there's a loop designed in for end-of-life...

[bigbill]

This is what scares me about electric cars - dear god I hope there's a loop designed in for end-of-life...

In the bad old days before batteries were "leased" from GNB, the old batteries were put in a pit and burned. When the naval base at Charleston, South Carolina, was closed in 1996, portions of the base (near neighborhoods) were declared as Superfund Sites by the EPA. There was a one acre lot where the ground was soft and occasionally "bubbled". They built an enclosure and dug up all the dirt and hauled it off to some facility.

On a side note, when the base was cleared for private industry to take over the drydocks and machinery shops, ivy was cleared in a back lot and brick building that had been a morgue during the Revolutionary War was found.

[Bobonli]

I'm not riding enough or in the right places, I guess. I mostly see trash. Occasionally a screw driver someone left on the roadside after making a repair.

[monadnocky]

10 mm and 0.5 inch sockets. It's like someone late at night drives down the local roads, throwing out handfuls of them.

I have one set of sockets, with one each in each size, metric and standard. But I have about seventeen 10mm and 0.5 inch sockets because I've picked up so many.

[TonyP]

10 mm and 0.5 inch sockets. It's like someone late at night drives down the local roads, throwing out handfuls of them.

I have one set of sockets, with one each in each size, metric and standard. But I have about seventeen 10mm and 0.5 inch sockets because I've picked up so many.

What, no 9/16"?

[thollandpe]

A few numbers from memory, apologies if they're off by much. Updates or corrections would be appreciated, of course.

I'm not riding enough or in the right places, I guess. I mostly see trash.

In the US, we throw enough aluminum containers away in three years to rebuild our entire commercial airline fleet. Aluminum can be recycled back to 100% purity (unlike steel), and takes only 5% of the energy required to make it from bauxite.

And let's not even get started on plastics. Global production is like five times higher than when I went to college. The amount of single-use plastic containers littering our roadsides boggles the mind. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...cs-since-1950/

IMO, any battery design needs to have a clear path for recycling.

Agreed. Last I checked the annual production of single-use "throwaway" alkaline batteries was like six billion in the US.

Those should have a recycling option as well as everything with a coin cell, and every cordless power tool (which seem to up the voltage as often as component manufacturers increase the number of cogs in a cassette). And iPhones, too.

This is what scares me about electric cars - dear god I hope there's a loop designed in for end-of-life...

I certainly agree, but wonder why it's such a concern now, because battery production skyrocketed before electric cars became popular. Anybody know how the mass of batteries in electric cars compares to those in cell phones? Cordless tools?

But there is one thing (and it's magic, really) that batteries in cars do that no other batteries do. They make something out of nothing. Braking energy (normally wasted as unrecoverable heat and brake dust) is harvested, stored, and re-used for propulsion. That's why the first-generation Prius hybrid used about 25% less energy than the identical Toyota Echo with a conventional power train.

[Saab2000]

There are definitely folks who want into battery recycling. The raw materials are valuable and costly and troublesome to mine. The future market for recycling of high end batteries will be huge. The materials are generally elemental in nature and will be able to be reconstituted to their elemental form.

One thing I’ve noticed about people’s perception of EV ownership: don’t have one and you’re raping the planet. Buy one and you’re raping the planet.

[RichTheRoadie]

One thing I’ve noticed about people’s perception of EV ownership: don’t have one and you’re raping the planet. Buy one and you’re raping the planet.

Totally. I feel a small sense of guilt that we're not currently running one, yet the most recent thing I read about them is that the 'payback' before they become more environmentally friendly than an engine-based car is around 10yrs...

[Saab2000]

Totally. I feel a small sense of guilt that we're not currently running one, yet the most recent thing I read about them is that the 'payback' before they become more environmentally friendly than an engine-based car is around 10yrs...

Gotta start somewhere. The recycling of raw materials will happen because the materials are too valuable and in quantities worth doing.

I’ve said elsewhere that I wouldn’t replace a perfectly good ICE vehicle now but when that vehicle is in its final stages it’s worth considering an EV.

I have a Tesla. Many pros and a number of cons as well. I’m not a cultist. It’s not a car enthusiast’s vehicle. It’s a neat appliance whose only really dynamic party trick is stupid acceleration. The non-dynamic party trick, and it’s really cool, is the charging, both at home and on the road.

But that’s another story for another thread. I hope my car isn’t a throw away vehicle anytime soon. Hopefully it’s still with me in a decade and has the patina and stories my GTI had when I sold it.

[Too Tall]

The new to me fancy pants Honda mower reveal is tomorrow ;) I feel like the luckiest guy on earth and NO I don't bring bed bugs home!!!! Doug this will further horrify you. Some yrs. back we built an addition for (GD rest her soul) mom. She needed a walker. Low and behold a neighbor put a low mileage walker on the curb. You bet I took that and returned a fresh baked loaf of bread with a thank you.

The circle of (trash) life ;)

[bigbill]

When it comes to batteries and recycling, batteries have to be standard in design and materials so it's viable to recycle. If a profit can be made from recycling, the industry will grow.

In 2012, the US Navy did the green fleet initiative where biofuel was used in jets, helicopters, gas turbine ships (destroyers, cruisers), and one of my diesels on the Nimitz. Biofuel was $27 a gallon at the time, but because a demand was created, more competition meant prices would come down. I just drove home from town and biodiesel was the same price as #2 diesel.

As much as I don't like expansion of government, I think state and federal governments could be part of creating a demand, and that demand could contain requirements for recycling.

[vertical_doug]

Bill hits the nail on the head in the problem is standardization. We should not think of it as recycling a battery as much as recycling a computer circuit which happens to be filled with a flammable material.

For the most part batteries are built on an assembly line by a robot. The reverse doesn't happen. The first thing the industry needs to do is bar code the batteries so you at least know the materials you'd be working with.

The primary focus now is stripping the packaging and recycling the cathode and anode which are the easiest. Anodes are typically graphite so no big issue there, but cathodes have many different chemistries from the iphone which is 100% cobalt, to Nissan Leaf Magnesium and Tesla's which vary between cobalt, Li , nickel, Aluminum and Magnesium mixtures.

You'd think apple would be the farthest along with recycling batteries, but it is hard to find any hard data. I think I saw somewhere they do about 13% of their cobalt usage is recycled. Overall, Apple claims 20% of content is recycled product, but I suspect most of that is aluminum. The rare-earths are used in too small amounts to be recycled.

You can try to make things easier to recycle, but that tends to come with decreasing performance. And I doubt many consumers would chose a vehicle or phone which has less impressive performance benchmarks just because it is touted to be easier to recycle.

It's all related, and ultimately, consumer behavior rarely rewards recycling if any extra effort is required. Face it, we are all habitually pretty lazy.

I think someday that will be the epitaph of our species on this planet when aliens visit our solar system- Here lies the remains of planet earth because the human species was habitually pretty lazy.

[Peter Polack]

In addition to battery recycling and all the other items mentioned above, I've observed plastics to be a severe problem, especially fast food containers.

I eat a lot of fast food for lunch and am amazed at the amount of recyclable plastic involved, from the cups to the lids and salad containers. Yet it would be nearly impossible to get people to sort their trash into the correct receptacle upon leaving, assuming the receptacles were available. It's a people problem and the people don't care. I may have to start taking the items home with me for proper disposal as that seems to be the only solution.

[vertical_doug]

It's almost spring here in the UK. I know because the aftermath of spring cleanings are everywhere....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-near-YOU.html

[Scott G.]

[snip]
As much as I don't like expansion of government, I think state and federal governments could be part of creating a demand, and that demand could contain requirements for recycling.

For government's creating markets, the book "Empires of the Sky: Zeppelins, Airplanes, and Two Men's Epic Duel to Rule the World"
Long distance air travel, Zeppelins vs Flying Boats.